Dragonbane Post-Mortem

[Wolfpack48]

Yes. I loved the play of Dragonbane. It was easy to run, freeing.

1. Players knew the "DC" of every check
2. XP was based on what characters did and advanced the skills they used
3. Monster tactics were flavorful and didn't require strategic expertise to run
4. Combats were fast
5. Pushing rolls brought roleplaying and mechanical strategy together
6. Travel, exploration, random encounters were clearly codified and easy to run

What was frustrating...

1. The rulebook wasn't the best organized
2. Some rules just weren't explained well. Like healing and rest. But I guess that's what you get in a book that contains around 50 pages of rules.
3. The balance can be really, really off. Cakewalk or TPK

Quite awhile ago, we played the Classic Fantasy supplement for BRP and were surprised how much it felt like an old school AD&D game. The thing I remember was HP = CON+SIZ which was enough to make you feel a bit less fragile. I think Dragonbane may even work better, but I need to do some work to convert monsters, spells and magic items.

 

[dbm]

Could you tell us more about what you thought worked well in Dragonbane? It’s a game I have read reviews of but not felt strongly enough to purchase.

I would agree with others that you can be uber in AD&D, however it’s more about the treasure than character class based abilities. Rod of Lordly Might, Staff of Power, lots of miscellaneous magic items, potions, scrolls. Typically associated with higher levels of course, maybe start above 1st or speed run the early levels to get there quickly?

@Retreater I would suggest Savage Rifts - uses the same core engine as the Savage Worlds you have played already but starting character options include being a young dragon, or having power armour with a tank-busting laser cannon. Those characters are uber and you have lots of widgets to play with.

 

[Retreater]

How would you say it feels compared to other brp games like dark age call of Cthulhu or pulp Cthulhu or runequest?

Of those, I have only played standard Call of Cthulhu and Pulp Cthulhu.
You don't have the resistance chart from previous editions (which was always hard for me to remember). Characters are much more resilient than even those in Pulp Cthulhu - you have damage reducing armor, healing magic, and can even recover hit points via resting.
You have a good chance to defeat monsters - unlike many of the bigger enemies in Cthulhu. It definitely has more of an action feel than Cthulhu.
Drawing cards for Initiative is random but quick, instead of having a standard initiative order in Cthulhu.
You can get permanent injuries, but most don't force you into retirement. (Only if you drop to 0 HP and fail a Con roll do you roll on the injuries chart. Most just give you a -1 to a skill or can be cured in days.)
I'd say that the game feels more like how I actually ran OSR at the time, which wasn't as deadly as it seems today.
For me, it's been some of the best consistent gaming I've had in a decade. I liked it as well as I liked 5e when that was my go-to game.
I would gladly convert The Enemy Within campaign to Dragonbane.

 

[Velderan]

What Next?

Player B and C seem to be wanting to go in the direction of old school D&D (THAC0-era). Player A wants to be a badass (which really can't happen in TSR-era gaming). We're going to meet over card games next week and discuss what we want. Could be Savage Worlds. Could be old school D&D. Could be Age of Sigmar Soulbound. I have no idea.

It's been years since I've played it, but would AD&D 2e with the Players/DMs Options books and Complete handbook options be a happy medium for both preferences? I seem to remember them upping the power level of PCs quite a bit, but again, it's been years since I've played 2e.

 

[Swanosaurus]

Not to mention that you don't really "level up" in Dragonbane, so the group doesn't feel as though they can get more powerful and defeat the BBEG, especially since he's more powerful for taking the McGuffin magic item from the party.

Well, in D&D, you come back at a higher level; in BRP, you come back with a better plan ... (sorry for the snark - it's totally okay to want to level, and your right in saying that Dragonbane doesn't really offer that).

 

[Retreater]

Well, in D&D, you come back at a higher level; in BRP, you come back with a better plan ... (sorry for the snark - it's totally okay to want to level, and your right in saying that Dragonbane doesn't really offer that).

There is a sidebar in the back of the rulebook that is essentially "starting a character at a higher level" - with suggestions that you give extra heroic feats and one skill advancement roll per session that the rest of the group has played. (This is how we made the character for my friend who joined for one session.)
But yes, they are in a much worse position now than when they originally faced the villain - even losing an artifact-level magic weapon.

 

[Retreater]

It's been years since I've played it, but would AD&D 2e with the Players/DMs Options books and Complete handbook options be a happy medium for both preferences? I seem to remember them upping the power level of PCs quite a bit, but again, it's been years since I've played 2e.

I remember the same thing. That's just a lot of system mastery (and extra books) that I can't expect them to begin with. The Skills/Powers and Combat/Tactics were quite the chore even when I lived and breathed that system weekly.
It's been nearly 25 years since any of us have touched AD&D 2e. One player has never played it at all.

 

[Retreater]

@Retreater I would suggest Savage Rifts - uses the same core engine as the Savage Worlds you have played already but starting character options include being a young dragon, or having power armour with a tank-busting laser cannon. Those characters are uber and you have lots of widgets to play with.

I have Savage Rifts. Player A would love it. Player C would hate it. Player B would like it until he got frustrated with the rules. (We played about 10 sessions of Holler - a more simple Savage Setting. Player B never got the hang of it.)
I mean, it's in consideration, but I might encourage them to go with Savage Pathfinder as a stepping stone from Dragonbane.

 

[Retreater]

Could you tell us more about what you thought worked well in Dragonbane? It’s a game I have read reviews of but not felt strongly enough to purchase.

I've touched on it in a few posts here, but let's see if I can organize it more clearly here.

The main theme I appreciate the most after spending years of wrecking my brain with over-thinking is the shear randomization of choices. It really takes so much of the weight off a DM. More than any game in recent memory, it felt like a long-long friend sitting next to me and helping me run a game. It doesn't have the pushy, heavily codified rules of something like Pathfinder 2. It doesn't have the "you're the DM - figure it out" mentality of 5e.

The first aspect of this is in character creation. While your players can completely customize every aspect of their character, there are charts to make creation quick and easy. You can roll on charts to decide your class, species, stats, equipment, name, appearance, roleplaying quirks, etc. You don't have to labor over "what the party needs" or "what's the best weapon" or "which feat do I take?"

In the monsters, you're presented with a chart you can roll on for your actions. Every one of them is flavorful, from a troll vomiting on a character to a giant picking up a hero and tossing him across the battlefield. Combats are fast, but you don't have to worry about enemies never getting to use cool abilities (because they're all cool abilities) or getting locked into repetitive actions (if you roll the same action twice in a row, you have to select another one).

Want to give interesting tactical options and encourage interaction with the environment? There are cards of terrain features that you can roll randomly to be used by characters and enemies. For example, during a battle in the woods the party was attacked by harpies and few of the heroes could reach them. But the cards showed that a boulder was there, and the rogue got to leap off it and stab a harpy through the chest. The knight was able to launch a hornet's nest at one of them and get it stuck on her head.

Add these to random encounter charts, mishaps for getting lost in the wilderness, critical fumble and success charts.

We praise the elegance and simplicity of Advantage/Disadvantage in D&D 5e. It's also used here. But it's stackable. You can have multiple Advantages that can give more flexibility and require teamwork. In desperation, the knight was trying to climb a slippery cliff in plate armor, so he had double disadvantage. The rest of the party is scrambling to toss him a rope to negate a disadvantage. He is considering leaving his armor in the pit. The monsters are closing in.

Dragonbane is not only a great game, it's the best game I've played in a decade. That boxed set has months of play in it and the full rules. It's a tremendous value that anyone who likes fantasy RPGs should consider.

 

[Wolfpack48]

My suggestion - take it or leave it - would be to stick with Dragonbane but offer a clear path to redemption and victory to the party. Perhaps a new item or piece of information about a secret weakness of Koth they could use to plot his downfall. Let them work toward it slowly but offer a clear path to victory so they can taste success again. Rewards at the end of it.

You could even do a “1 Year Later…” to allow time to recover and regain strength. We did this once for a character who had been seriously injured and he bounced back nicely.