4e causual? (Forked Thread: Necromancer Games NOT going with current GSL)

[pemerton]

Forked from: Necromancer Games NOT going with current GSL.

IMO compared to 3.5e 4e is to D&D what the Wii is to the Xbox 360 or the PS3. Its the perfect game for casual gamers. Easy to pick up and learn, few options (eve settings are only getting one major book), and optimized balance that allows for everyone to be awesome all the time. None of these things are bad necessarily, but the design philosophy is fundamentally different.

This claim has been made before, but it continues to baffle me.

I'm not 100% sure what a "casual gamer" is, but I'm pretty sure that I'm not one. I've played RPGs regularly for all but 2 of the past 26 years. I have over 1000 posts on ENworld and also post from time to time on the ICE and WoTC boards. And 4e is the first version of D&D since 1st ed AD&D that I can imagine playing or GMing in any serious fashion.

I don't see it as suffering from too few options to play seriously - it has more options than pre-UA 1st ed AD&D, for example, and that game could certainly be played seriously - and in any event options aren't the be-all and end-all of RPGing.

Undoubtedly 4e is a very contemporary RPG - its rules (despite various hiccups like Stealth and Skill Challenges) are carefully designed to support a particular sort of play experience, and (as its designers have indicated with their references to MMOs, indie RPGs and German board games) it draws on a sound understanding of what is cutting edge in game design.

But unless one thinks that contemporary game = casual game, I don't see where the idea of "casualness" comes from. There is nothing "casual" about carefully calibrated reward mechanics, or encounter design guidelines, or serious skill challenge mechanics designed to support conflict resolution skill use. Getting these things right is arguably the holy grail of the mechanical aspect of RPG design - how much more serious do you want a game to be!

Without 3pp support 4e will be what 3.5 would have been without 3pp support...an endless stream of splats filled with cool toys, feats, items, etc. that will undoubltedly introduce power creep and balance into 4e's perfectly balanced system...however without the creativity and innovation of alternate systems and settings like...

Arcana Unearthed
Iron Heroes
True20
Midnight
Conan D20

...and others who brought mechanical and creative innovation to 3.5e. With the GSL as it is 4e will never have the richness of 3.5e.

I don't fully understand how different games can be led as evidence of the richness of 3.5. That's like saying that HARP (which resembles RM at least as closely as Iron Heroes does 3.5) is evidence of the richness of Rolemaster, or Call of Cthulhu evidence of the richness of Runequest.

Furthermore, and just to pick on one of your examples, OGL Conan has a feature that many detractors of 4e decry, namely, that PCs can't die (because of the Fate Point rules) unless a player self-consciously chooses to run that risk (by spending all his/her Fate Points for other purposes). To the extent that OGL Conan, in featuring that rule, has drawn on a general change in the zeitgeist towards metagame mechanics, 4e already incorporates such innovation into its own design. To the extent that such an innovation makes a game "casual" (because only the non-casual can tolerate the sitting out that comes with PC death) then OGL Conan is as casual as 4e.

There's little doubt that 3E and 4e support different approaches to play. But I think it's an error to label one of them as "casual" play. It would be biased to describe it as contemporary play. That's why I (unlike some others) prefer the Forgist language, and describe it as supportive of both gamist and (fairly vanilla) narrativist play.

 

[Kzach]

If there are people who are claiming 4e is a casual game as opposed to 3e which is serious, then in all honesty they are precisely the type of people you should ignore.

That's just blatantly insulting 4e and anyone who plays it. That somehow their games are lesser just because of the system they use. It's about as obvious a troll as you can get without changing your nick to "I troll 4e players!"

 

[Runestar]

I have no idea what a casual player is supposed to be either.

In M:TG, we have distinctions between professional players and casual gamers. But dnd has no tournaments (at least none of the competitive sort, if you count RPGA), so I am not sure what sort of distinction can be drawn.

Could it be that 4e seems to discourage optimization, the same way that M:TG tournament-worthy decks seems to have been carefully playtested and 'optimized' to win, as opposed to 'casual decks' which may be less tourney-viable or something?

Or does it suggest that 4e might involve less roleplaying, because its theme might seem more gimmicky, WoW'ish or cartoony, and as such, it may be harder for players to take it seriously?

I might feel insulted, except that I don't even know which aspect of me I am being insulted for in the first place...

 

[Rechan]

From what I understand, a "Casual gamer" is someone who shows up, wanting to roll dice, kill orcs, eat chips, and have a good time. Game Night for the casual gamer is like Poker Night. They don't care what numbers are on their character sheet, they can't tell you what all their feats do without looking at their sheet, and more than likely they've never read a spell description. They are the nemesis of the Rules Lawyer, because the rules aren't important to the Casual Gamer.

Let me tell you, for this kind of player, 4e is no different than 3e. Because many powers deal with the specifics of movement, the application of conditions, handling healing surges, or juggling at-wills/encounters/dailies.

If the individual can't really grasp the intricacies of Power Attack and its effects, then they won't be gauging the situational usefuless of Sure Strike vs. Reaping Strike, or what circumstance Wolf-Pack Tactics is best for.

Also, 3e had the "Casual Gamer's Class": The Barbarian. The only jiggering of numbers, the only complex thing about the Barbarian: Add +2 to hit and damage, +2 to Will, -2 to AC when you rage, x/day. Tada, done. In 4e, there's no "easy" class - everyone has options.

If I wanted to try and compare 3e to 4e, I'd say that 3e is more like Civilization (a history/empire simulator Turn Based Strategy game), and 4e is like Chess. 3e has lots of little rules that build up to simulate something, but there is strategy involved. 4e has fewer variations, and each piece has its own little job and own little weakness, but it is capable of lots of complex tactical movements.

 

[neceros]

Good reply, Rechan.

Another simply explaination of the differences between 3.5 and 4e...
3e is for world simulation,
4e is for cinematic simulation.

 

[Najo]

A casual gamer doesn't devote the same amount of time, energy or money into the hobby that a hardcore gamer does. If you played D&D for multiple editions, if you know the rules inside and out, if you play more weeks than not or in mulitple games each week, you are not a causal gamer.

The casual gamer is the friend of that guy, who wants to play and but doesn't have the time or energy or discovered the value a hardcore sees in the game.

Casual gamers tend to be non-hobby gamers, or the sterotypical wife or girlfriend or they are the family member or friend who wants to play to spend time with the gamer.

It is possible for a casual gamer to become a hardcore gamer. They just have to have barriers of entry removed for them so it is easier to hop into the middle of the fun.

Previous versions of D&D have had to many rules between the new player and the fun part for the casual gamer. The elements power gamers and rules lawyers love about these games is overwhelming for a casual gamer, and turns them off.

World of Warcraft has successfully removed barriers of entry for many undiscovered gamers. This is why the game is so successful. The non-hardcore gamer can hop in and "get it" quickly, they start having fun right away and in a few weeks to months they are keeping up with the hardcores if they have it in them.

D&D 4e did follow this design, and this is one of the areas people are feeling the WOW vibe in 4e. 4e is not trying to be WOW though, it is trying to have a casual to hardcore friendly game model like WOW.

I think 4e not only did this successfully (which is one of the reasons it is a better D&D product than previous editions), but it manage to successfully do it with the DM's role to, which is an absolute first for RPGs and in the long run going to be great for the gaming industry (which is another reason 4e is such a good product). The third thing is 4e is fixes all of the math issues of previous editions, which is good for casuals too.

 

[delericho]

I do think the comparison with the Wii is somewhat apt - 4e strikes me as much more of a game to pick up and play, rather than 3e, which was simply much more complex and mathematical.

I absolutely do not consider this a bad thing.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I do think the comparison with the Wii is somewhat apt - 4e strikes me as much more of a game to pick up and play, rather than 3e, which was simply much more complex and mathematical.

I absolutely do not consider this a bad thing.

Pick-Up might be fast, but I honestly don't know if picking-up 3e wasn't fast, either. The devil is in the detail, and that shows only with experience...

That said, it definitely seems easier to start a game at 15th level in 4E then in 3E. Okay, it's certainly easy if you've got experience with RPGs in the first place, but it seems amazing how fast our DM worked out the 3E to 4E conversion of Savage Tides, and how fast we were able to "use" our characters effectively. (Though "fast" still means "it takes a few encounters" )

 

[ProfessorCirno]

4e is just as complicated as 3.x, just in different areas. 3e wasn't complicated right out of the box with core rules, at least not more so then 4e is now. But as supplements get added on, watch and see how things change.

Also, calling it "casual" isn't really an insult when a few 4e supporters - like one in this thread - see it as a compliment.

 

[Jhaelen]

If there are people who are claiming 4e is a casual game as opposed to 3e which is serious, then in all honesty they are precisely the type of people you should ignore.

Well, I'd claim that 4E is better suited for casual players than 3E.

This is different from claiming that 4E is a 'casual game'.

You no longer have to invest a significant amount of time to be able to play it or create an effective character. I see it as a game that is easy to learn but difficult to master. If you want to spent huge amounts of time on optimizing your character you can still do so, but it's no longer a requirement.