D&D 4E 4E combat and non-combat timing

[LostSoul]

The problem then becomes that in 4E everybody suddenly has heaps of hp, making it impossible to populate this castle realistically and still hope the PCs can prevail.

Too bad for the PCs, then, if they can't figure out a way to take out the guards.

What does your castle adventure look like? What are the PCs going up against?

If the guard encounters are normal or easy difficulty, I'm sure that they could wipe them out in 4-5 rounds. Especially if they have surprise and a chance to plan.

 

[James McMurray]

Currently humans in D&D run way too slowly and walk way too quickly. If you assume that people who are fighting for their lives tend to hustle when needed, two or three second rounds put average movement rates closer to real life, making movement more realistic, not less.

If you're truly concerned about realism in movement, you'll need to revamp the system entirely, as the difference between a run and a walk is much greater than the 33% boost +2 gives, even for the most lethargic types.

I guess it just looks like you're looking for too much complexity when you've got a very simple problem. You say that it has to be transparent and not feel arbirtray. If that's the case, shouldn't you be discussing it with the players instead of fifty random strangers? Maybe they don't care and would be happy with a simple solution. Maybe they have a better idea that fits your group's style.

 

[RangerWickett]

If I were to use 4e rules to design a fort, I'd ask myself, "Do I want the PCs to be able to get into this fort, or do I want it to be obvious that it's too dangerous?"

If I don't want them getting in, then I make it clear. Heavily armed, tough-as-nails looking guards patrol with ruthless efficiency, visible from afar, and the guard towers have regular torch signals they send to keep in touch with each other. The PCs should realize from a quick look that they aren't going to get in without . . . your choice here: getting help from NPC group X, or finding the secret rumored underground tunnel, or whatever.

If I do want them to get into the fort, then I'd make sure the defenses are balanced so they can pull it off. If the whole "take out the guards" scene will take approximately 5 minutes, then it should be the equivalent of one encounter, albeit perhaps a tough one. Maybe there are four guard towers, and each tower has four minion guards who are a little lower level than the party, and one specialist guard, who might be a brute, or an artillery, or a controller. The guards circling the place on patrol would likewise be mostly minions, with a few normal creatures in there to keep things interesting.

The whole encounter would have 5 or 6 standard monsters and 20 or 30 minions, but all of them lower level than the party, and stretched out over several minutes so the PCs should be able to avoid being overwhelmed. I'd make sure to include some tricks the PCs can play to stymie the defenders, like portcullises they could drop to trap some of the guards, or perhaps the fantasy equivalent of a munitions depot that they could explode to take out several at once.

Basically, design the environment and foes to match what you want the encounter to be.

 

[Dausuul]

Make the guards minions, and give them a little extra room so the wizard can't fry them all with one blast. The challenge for the PCs is to kill each group of guards before any of them has a chance to give the alarm. If they fail, more groups of guards will start arriving round by round until the PCs vacate the area.

 

[James McMurray]

Solution: The guards are minions.

And/or the commander is not a solo.

What about making the commander a minion possessed by a solo demon? Then when the god guys kill him in one shot, the guards he just alerted come running in, wet themselves, and run back out while the PCs fight the real encounter.

 

[timbannock]

<snip>

Good advice here.


If you do want to go with realism, remember that if the guards are not a completely efficient band of highly skilled, high morale guards, then response time is longer than you'd think. Even if that is the case, being alerted to a response, preparing yourself for it, and locating the exact position are not easy. Close quarters ambushes by special forces and police units prove this to be true time and time again.

A fort at night is not likely to be completely silent -- not by a long stretch. If there's any alcohol on the premises, there's likely people laughing and screaming and maybe even fighting (maybe not trying to kill each other, but "friendly" wrestling, brawling, or maybe a gambling game that goes awry).

So, if the PCs get the drop on some guards, first of all, those guards don't even get a chance to make a noise until after the PCs have already acted. If these guards aren't minions, well, then the PCs should still have anywhere upwards of a couple of minutes before the sounds of battle register with the next closest set of guards and they arrive on the scene. If it took the PCs more than 10 rounds to fight a couple of guards, then you've got bigger problems in your adventure (potentially from either side of the DM screen).

If the fort's so small that response time is only a matter of seconds, then why the hell aren't the PCs attacking it from range with fireballs and area effect stuff? Or causing a distraction elsewhere to draw away the enemy forces?

And is every guard in a 5-man group? Does every lookout tower have 5 people crammed into it? A realistic fort is going to man its lookout towers with the minimum it can, while still being effective. Maybe 1-3 guards in a tower. If these guys are minions, the PCs should wipe the floor with them. If the fort has no reason to be on alert, assume at least half the guard is not even that perceptive...they are daydreaming, dozing off, reading a spellbook (if they are a spellcaster), or whatever. Being a town watchman back in the Dark Ages was boring work, and pay wasn't that great. Most people did a poor job of it, if they even bothered to try at all.

Also remember the DM's best friend: if the PCs get the surprise, have planned incredibly well, and you feel that they should win, then first of all, they should just win. If you like rolling the dice though, add +2...not just to hit, but also to damage. This will take out the guards a little faster. I.e., if your players sniper the two guards in the lookout tower, give them some bonuses to hit for aiming without duress, and some bonuses to damage for being able to target these guys who are probably not moving around too much, and if so, in a predictable manner.

Lots of reasons the PCs should auto kill these guys, IF THEY PLAN PROPERLY (and execute said plan properly).

If they don't, then by all means swarm 'em. That would be realistic as well.

Another 4e-minded way to handle it: maybe most of the guards aren't minions for whatever reason (I can't think of one, but okay). Well, for the purposes of an incredibly well-planned attacked, make any surprised guards minions for the first round of combat. If they get dealt with, then fine. If not, "restore" them to non-minion status and sound the alarm. This all happens behind the screen.

Finally, if the issue is the Players metagaming and saying "I don't know if they're minions, so we shouldn't stake our lives on this tactic," then tell the Players to knock it off. Or better yet, give them clues: "These guards are pretty good at what they do, but there are definite chinks in their patrol pattern. As skilled as they are, you know you could beat a single patrol without much hassle if the alarm weren't raised." Then use the ideas outlined above if they get in without sounding the alarm.

 

[Obryn]

If you're using a solo, they just won't go down quickly. That's built in to the game design... I also don't think a solo captain of the guard is necessarily reasonable... Heck, I don't even know that they should be Elite. Just make them a level or two higher than the rest of the guards, add in some Leadership ability, and it'll distinguish him just fine.

If you have a design goal in mind for this scenario (as in, "I want to make this encounter easy enough that the PCs could take care of it quickly with good planning"), you have a number of tools in 4e's DMing toolbox to make it work. In 3e, you would make it so the guards all had low hit dice and make it a low EL fight. In 4e, you have that option, still, and a few others.

For one thing, I don't think there's much difficulty in a group of 5 characters taking out two guards of their level or less. I'd be surprised if it took more than three rounds. The PCs can just use a few Encounter abilities and it'll be done very quickly.

If it's important that there are a lot of easily-dispatched guards, go ahead and make them several levels lower than the PCs. Alternately, make them minions. It'll work just fine.

Heck; there's nothing preventing you from treating guards differently depending on how the PCs approach them - if they plan well, the guards are minions. If they just charge in, the guards aren't minions. "Minion" is nothing more than a rules construct; it has no objective reality in the imagined D&D world.

-O

 

[James McMurray]

If you're using a solo, they just won't go down quickly. That's built in to the game design... I also don't think a solo captain of the guard is necessarily reasonable... Heck, I don't even know that they should be Elite. Just make them a level or two higher than the rest of the guards, add in some Leadership ability, and it'll distinguish him just fine.

This is a good idea. A standard (non-elite) humanoid warlord plus two pals (or a fighter two levels higher) can be a tough fight, but won't have the staying power of an elite.

Heck; there's nothing preventing you from treating guards differently depending on how the PCs approach them - if they plan well, the guards are minions. If they just charge in, the guards aren't minions. "Minion" is nothing more than a rules construct; it has no objective reality in the imagined D&D world.

Good stuff here as well.

 

[LostSoul]

Here's a little adventure for storming a hobgoblin fort for 5 Level 4 PCs.

Towers:

There are two towers, east and west. Each tower has 1 hobgoblin soldier, 4 hobgoblin archers (manning the arrow slits, superior cover), and 1 hobgoblin warcaster. (XP 900, level 4 encounter.) There is also a ballista (Standard; Recharge 6; Ranged 20/40; +8 vs. Ref; 3d8+3 damage) covering the area in front of the tower. A large bell hangs from the rafters.

Tactics: In case of attack from outside, the archers will continue to fire arrows (lending aid to one another). The warcaster and soldier man the ballista until targets get too close; then the warcaster will move them out of formation using Force Lure and the soldier will pour boiling oil on any below (Standard; Recharge 5,6; area burst 1 in a straight line down; +8 vs. Ref; 2d10+3 damage). If anyone tries to climb the tower, the warcaster will use Force Pulse to knock them back, waiting until he can hit the most targets.

The hobgoblins are not prepared from an attack launched from within the fort. PCs who succeed at a DC 12 Stealth check may gain surprise. They will attempt to form a battle line, some of the archers drawing steel alongside the soldier while the warcaster attempts to use Force Lure and Force Pulse to push PCs out of the tower.

One of the hobgoblins will attempt to ring the bell. The bell can be disabled with an attack (AC 5; Fort 10, Ref 5; HP 20) or with a Thievery check (DC 12). If the bell is rung, the fort will be alerted to the PC's presence and will arrive in 1d6+4 rounds.

If the bell is not rung, make a Perception check against DC 25 (+5 modifier) for the other hobgoblins in the fort each round. Add a +2 modifier each round that passes.

Main Gate:

The main gate is made of a gatehouse over a small entrance. A heavy iron gate blocks the main entrance, barred from the inside, and beyond that an iron portcullis (currently up) blocks further entrance into the courtyard. Murder holes allow the defenders to attack those trapped beneath both gates. A large bell allows the defenders to alert the fort to attack.

The main gate is manned by 4 hobgoblin soldiers, 6 hobgoblin archers, 1 hobgoblin warcaster, and 1 hobgoblin commander. (XP 1850, level 8). The hobgoblin soldiers are armed with spears instead of flails (basic melee; reach 2; +7 vs. AC; 1d10+4 damage, and the target is marked until the end of the hobgoblin soldier's next turn), which they can use to attack PCs in the area below. They also have boiling oil (see above for stats).

etc.

 

[Gadget]

Some good advice here. I would add that the "4E" way to do things is ask to yourself what kind of encounter do you want this to be and how challenging do you want it to be? If it is a skill challenge, sneak past the guards and get into position type of thing, I would make the guards minions with the caveat that as soon as the alarm is sounded, all or a certain percentage of the guards become non-minions and the PCs job gets very difficult very fast. With 4E's focus on the narrative end of things, I don't see anything wrong with having minion and non-minion stats for the guards on hand, depending on the situation.

As for the captain, asking for a way to 'quickly' take out a solo in 4E before reinforcements arrive is like asking for water that isn't wet. Solo's, by design, are supposed to be knock down drag out fights that take a while. If the captain must remain a solo, then I see two options: an elaborate skill challenge/ DMG 42 set up that, if successful, allows a one-shot (or two-shot) assassination; or the PC's need to isolate the captain and dog-pile him without interruptions.

I would recommend that latter. This could be as simple of getting him to retire to his quarters with his 'mistress', and the doors/windows barred from the inside. Meanwhile the PCs sneak into the fort (perhaps quietly dispatching a few minions on the way) and perform the passwall ritual to gain access to his quarters and take him in isolation. It might also be worthwhile to have the PCs bribe/insight a local bandit group to attack the fortress as a distraction, and, while the majority of his men are repelling the assault take on the captain with impunity. These methods are probably more 'realistic' as the heros in action movies always seem to have the noble band of freedom fighters/rebels/bandits attack BBE's stronghold and, while the mooks are fighting each other, square off against BBE.

The above, of course, assume that the PCs are aware of the Captain and how much of a BBE he is, and that they cannot just go in with guns blazing.