D&D 4E 4E Combat as "Skill Challenge"

[Stormonu]

I tried my hand again at 4E recently, and its quite apparant that 4E's combat system is not to group's liking; it simply takes too much time and energy for their tastes. I'd like to be able to distill the combat system down to something that can be resolved in 15 minutes - or less.

At the same time, I would like to be able to retain the flavor of powers and monster abilities, so a straight-up skill challenge for combat probably won't be the way I want to go, though I'd like to be able to use the principle for staging the combat. I'd like to build something that doesn't require pulling out a battlemat, if at all possible - the tactical side of combat seems to be where my group is losing interest.

I'm imagining most of the time the checks would be the characters using their powers to make "attacks", with the penalty of failing the check being the monster "hits" them and deals damage - probably equal to a healing surge; the monsters don't need to make a roll back at the PCs, I can just use the stat blocks to pick and describe how the monster wounds the PCs.

I (or the PCs) could throw in checks that require other skill checks to help "spice up" a combat - fighting in a geyser field could require Acrobatic or Athletic checks to avoid getting scalded, Perception checks could be used to prevent getting ambushed, etc.

Marks, push/pull/slide would probably just provide a +2 "manuevering" bonus - for leaders the bonus would apply to one character of choice, for strikers, it would be for their own advantage. I'm not sure how to handle marking as part of a skill challenge, though I'm thinking something along the lines of either allowing the defender to move damage from another player's failed check to himself or granting a bonus of some kind.

Instead of tracking monster HP, I'm considering using 1 successful skill check drops a minion, 2 successful skill checks drops a regular monster, 4 checks to drop an elite and 8 checks drops a solo. If the encounter is a level above, it takes +0/+1/+2/+3 checks (depending on minion/normal/elite/solo, in that order) or +0/+2/+3/+4 for encounters that are 2 levels above, and so forth.

The big question is, since I'm not too familiar with the game's powers, is what effects/abilities am I going to need to modify to be able to use this sort of "skill challenge" system and make it work. Any shout-outs or considerations would be welcome.

Again, my group isn't interested in playing the tactical side of the game - they want something narrative, and combats that resolve quickly.

 

[Cheeseliker]

Hey, I would love to implement a system like this. One thing you would have to think about though, is encounter and daily's. Would encounter simply give maybe a +2 more then an at-will, or would an encounter success count as two successful skill checks? And a daily?

I'm just throwing questions out there, because I would really like to use something like this with my own players, as we also want a more narrative rather then tactical combat.

 

[chronoplasm]

You might want to figure out some way to incorporate 'opportunity attacks' and 'shifting' into this somehow, since there are so many powers and class features that rely on these terms.

 

[Neuroglyph]

I did something similar in my blog, but with respect to a scenario where you would sneak up and assassinate a guard. Check it out.

D&D 4e Skill Challenge: Assassination

 

[Stormonu]

I was thinking that Encounters would probably count as 2 successes, Dailies as 3 or 4.

 

[Stormonu]

You might want to figure out some way to incorporate 'opportunity attacks' and 'shifting' into this somehow, since there are so many powers and class features that rely on these terms.

Opportunity attacks would probably need to go for this, they're needlessly complex for such a simplization of the system. I don't think you'd need to bother with shifting either. They're both fine for tactical combats, but for narrative combats, you don't really need either, and that's essentially what a Skill challenge is - a narrative resolution (with dice checks) to a problem.

P.S.: Haven't checked out the assassination blog thread yet, but that's my next move...

And thanks everyone, your comments so far have been much more productive and kinder than on the Wizards forums.

 

[Cheeseliker]

I think you would need to take a look at the character's powers and their effects, and then utilize that into the skill challenge somehow. Say if an effect is that they can move the creature one square, they move the creature into flanking for another character giving that character a +2 bonus on their attack roll.

You will just need to think about the powers' effects and how they can relate to skill checks.

I'm thinking of having my players simply say what the effect is, "So I hit him, do this damage(or just 'success) and I can move him one square." Then I reply "Well seeing as your companion is close by, you can move the enemy into an advantageous position for your ally, giving him a +1 on his attack roll."

Please continue to post your thoughts and definitely tell us if you try it and how it works out.


Edit:
I had some thoughts of my own, actually.

Effects and how they could affect a combat 'skill challenge'
Forced Movement: You move a creature to an advantageous position, giving +1-+3(depending on circumstance, environment) to the next attack roll on the creature, OR move the creature into some hazard, gaining another automatic success.

Ongoing damage: For every 5 points of ongoing damage to a creature, everyone who attacks that creature gets a +1 to their attack roll.


Now, as for monsters, I was thinking on a failed check, they get an auto-hit, but the monsters have alot of interesting powers and effects, so you'd want to work those in somehow, but probably in a different way then the players, as the monsters aren't in the same situation as the players in combat, they only get to do something on a failed check.

 

[LostSoul]

You would look at the fluff text of a power instead of the mechanics.

Tide of Iron would still knock a guy back (possibly out a window or off a bridge); Come and Get It would still have the bad guys jump at you.

I was thinking about this before. One of the ideas I came up with was to scrap the traditional success/failure mechanic that skill challenges have and replace it with the concept of hits. If you roll a success, you score a hit. If you roll a failure, you're probably going to lose a healing surge.

How many hits each monster has (I was thinking 2 per monster, 4 for elites and 8 for solos, with brutes maybe having an extra 1), how many healing surges "monster attacks" (re: failures) do, and how many hits each attack does and to how many monsters... all that would have to be worked out.

Anyways, it's a possible option. But at that point are you just better off with using HP? Don't know.

 

[overgeeked]

I've been working on a freestyle powers system and I have to say I really like the idea of combat as a skill challenge. Definitely more cinematic in my mind.

One piece of the system I'm working on that might work for you is this...

Effects: characters can chose to add an appropriate effect to an attack by lowering the damage. To add an effect simply reduce the damage [for your system that would cancel the 'success' of an at-will, and reduce an encounter to 1 success, and a daily to 2 successes]. Adding an effect to an at-will power reduces the damage to 0 (unless the character's role grants a 'free' effect). Effects include applying a condition (list to follow, and no, not dying) to a target, forcing movement (whether that movement is a push, pull, or slide), or applying an area of effect to a power. Slowed is available to controllers as an at-will effect. All others are limited to encounter or daily use.

Role: a character’s role largely determines what effects are appropriate. See page 15-6 of the PHB for more detailed descriptions of class roles.

Defenders focus on marking and pulling targets to them. Defenders gain a free mark, push, or pull effect.

Strikers focus on dealing large amounts of damage to a single target or being highly mobile. Strikers gain an increase in damage [considered a +1 to successes for your system] when attacking a single target or a free movement effect for themselves.

Leaders focus on healing or granting bonuses to their allies, or applying penalties to their foes. Leaders gain a free bonus to an ally, a free movement for an ally, or can grant a free use of a healing surge to an ally.

Controllers focus on area of effect powers, whether dealing damage over an area, altering the terrain, or forcing groups of enemies to move. Controllers gain a free area of effect bonus.