D&D 4E 4E Combat Rounds and Perception

[Propheous_D]

So I am under the impression that the new combat model is based on a philosophy of damage over time vs burst damage. This means that we will be on average doing less damage each round but more damage over physical time. Meaning that with the new system it takes less physical time to play out a round, but you require more rounds to accomplish the same goals then in say 3E.

Going on that thread of thought then I personally believe that 4E characters are all most deadlier then 3E characters. The reason being that on average they will have the ability to deal more damage in combat over all. This comes from the loss of negative Bab for multiple attacks, Casters having less downtime rounds, and not having to worry about full attack action positioning.

I don't know about the rest of you but in higher level campaigns especially with inexperienced players it could get rediculous the down time between rounds of combat. I think that this choice alone could be one of the things that really makes 4E worth playing.

 

[Morrus]

I don't know about the rest of you but in higher level campaigns especially with inexperienced players it could get rediculous the down time between rounds of combat. I think that this choice alone could be one of the things that really makes 4E worth playing.

Absolutely. In my 20th level AoW campaign, people often twiddle their thumbs for up to 5 minutes while someone resolves their attacks.

 

[fafhrd]

In a 10th level campaign, I can pretty reliably go have a smoke after my turn, and the next guy isn't finished with his by the time I get back.

 

[Kahoots]

I'm thinking that the Real Time duration of a battle should be shorter, but the number of rounds will either stay the same or increase by a small amount. Of course, the amount of time that passes between turns should drop significantly. (The 10+ minutes between rounds at a big table was a major issue before.)

My perception is that the designers were trying to have a turn involve moving, using a power, throwing a single To Hit D20, then damage dice, and then the next person goes. Anything that could lengthen that time period was relatively expendible... multiple attacks involving numerous attack rolls and damage throws, etc.

To your question about damage, it seems that average HP for a monster and the PCs will be lower and damage output will also be lower. If you are looking at damage output from a single attack as a percent of the monster's max HP, I would agree that PC's attacks will seem stronger as they are lumping the previous several attacks into one... but then again, a miss on the single attack negates that PC's attack all together.

 

[Propheous_D]

To your question about damage, it seems that average HP for a monster and the PCs will be lower and damage output will also be lower. If you are looking at damage output from a single attack as a percent of the monster's max HP, I would agree that PC's attacks will seem stronger as they are lumping the previous several attacks into one... but then again, a miss on the single attack negates that PC's attack all together.

I have to disagree we have all ready seen that between healing surges, starting hp and the hit points say a Pit Fiend (350HP) doesn't really seem to be lower at all. Not to mention that mechanics like the Drain Life now acting as a heal on the person doing the draining. I think that we are looking at more rounds in general.

 

[Kahoots]

There was a game that I DM'd which had 7 players. One of which was a summoner Druid who liked to bring out as many creatures as possible every battle. His turn ended up being 10 minutes or so because he had to throw so many dice and make so many decisions. The other 6 players combined usually took another 10-20 minutes depending on how critical there actions were.

"Never again," I say to the 30 minute round. Urg!

 

[Derren]

In a 10th level campaign, I can pretty reliably go have a smoke after my turn, and the next guy isn't finished with his by the time I get back.

Absolutely. In my 20th level AoW campaign, people often twiddle their thumbs for up to 5 minutes while someone resolves their attacks.

You must have some very "green" players.
When you instead of smoking or thumb twiddleing start to think about what you are going to do when its your turn, and when all players are doing that the combat would flow really fast.

The biggest slowdown for D&D combat are not complex rules but players who think they can turn of their brain till its their turn again.

 

[Kahoots]

I have to disagree we have all ready seen that between healing surges, starting hp and the hit points say a Pit Fiend (350HP) doesn't really seem to be lower at all. Not to mention that mechanics like the Drain Life now acting as a heal on the person doing the draining. I think that we are looking at more rounds in general.

Oh well, I do miss things from time to time.

BTW, have we seen anything about non-NPC monsters having healing surges? I realize that some of them have healing abilities like Drain Life, but will they be able to heal like NPC/PCs?

 

[Propheous_D]

You must have some very "green" players.
When you instead of smoking or thumb twiddleing start to think about what you are going to do when its your turn, and when all players are doing that the combat would flow really fast.
The biggest slowdown for D&D combat are not complex rules but players who think they can turn of their brain till its their turn again.

Actually It takes me about 10-30 second ( see edit ) to complete any round of combat and has no bearing on what other people are doing or what I do in between combat. We are not talking about people who have been playing the game for 15 years. The majority of players are not that experienced or dedicated to playing DnD. Thus the more complex the rules even if they have time between combats they will most like still spend plenty of time on their time figuring things out.

This is not calculating in any of the additional complexity added by the system for the way it is developed. Any way you argue it the 4E round is proving to be much quicker then the 3E round at higher levels. Expereinced or non-experienced it doesn't matter really.

EDIT
I should state that it takes me 10-30 seconds on average because I know the rules, roll attack die with damage die, colour code my dice, and plan my rounds way in advance. Which I think is rediculous personally.

 

[Orryn Emrys]

You must have some very "green" players.
When you instead of smoking or thumb twiddleing start to think about what you are going to do when its your turn, and when all players are doing that the combat would flow really fast.

The biggest slowdown for D&D combat are not complex rules but players who think they can turn of their brain till its their turn again.

I do agree with the sentiment, but perhaps not your assessment. I know I've had fewer players sneak off for a smoke during combat in recent years, but that's usually just because they don't want to miss what happens. I like to attribute part of this to my entertaining narrative during combat, which will often skew to different characters' perspectives of the fight, and another part to a very serious investment in each others' wellfare. Beyond that, for some "not so green" players smoking a cigarette on the porch and planning their next move are not mutually exclusive activities. Particularly if they're just playing fighters having to wait for the spellcasters to resolve their actions.

But I do find it particularly annoying when I get to a player and they have no idea what to do (unless that's particularly in character for the PC, of course), or worse, what's going on. This is made all the more frustrating by my consistent efforts to flow through combat as swiftly and smoothly as possible.