D&D 4E 4e: Death of the Bildungsroman

[Primal]

Yes, low-level combats can still be deadly.

Yes, low-level combatants are already considered "heroic."

The core of the post lies in the second point, not the first.

Low-level combats become extremely *predictable* and focused on using the best tactical choices available, and how well you can "exploit" the synergies between each character's chosen abilities. Yes, it won't be as "swingy" as in 3E, but in some ways it's not as "heroic" anymore -- for example, I know many players will miss the chance to slay dragons with a lucky crit (happened to me when I was down to 9 HPs -- one of the best experiences I ever had in D&D . One of the "test fights" on another showed pretty clearly that once you miss a few times, there's no way you can win the fight -- at least if you foes keep hitting you at the same time. Of course, you always have time to withdraw as they can't crit you to death, either. But I think for me this "downsizing" of combat damage will result in more boring and too-predictable fights, while -- me being a very "non-tactical" player and DM -- will also result in combat becoming more stressful to run and participate in.

 

[Simon Marks]

Why are dragonbourn an issue but 300 year old elves aren't?

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Why are dragonbourn an issue but 300 year old elves aren't?

So long as they don't teleport around, the elves aren't an issue because they aren't inherently magical. The issue with dragonborn is that they're too "out there." Honestly, it's the same problem with tieflings. It's not cool, and it's not cool in a twelve year old writing fanfiction sense; it's a grown man who goes to work every day trying to be cool in a twelve year old writing fanfiction sense. It's someone jumping out of an airplane chugging mountain dew and wearing sunglasses while listening to the newest garage punk band. It's too much.

Why? What about spell slots is required for stories about beginning wizards? I can't think of many stories about beginning wizards, but none of the sorceror's apprentice who made all those brooms, Luke Skywalker, that guy from Robert Asprin's Myth books, the Gray Mouser were described as having spell slots, that I remember.

The Vancian system was introduced to model a wizard's growing power. But it's not the only way to do so.

By making magic too prolific, you cheapen it. Magic isn't as amazing when your standard level one wizard can just pump out magic nonstop without any need to rest. When the laws of physics are broken at level one, it makes levels 2-29 less awe inspiring.

 

[FireLance]

Why are dragonbourn an issue but 300 year old elves aren't?

Because 300 year old elves are boring and trite a long-established and respected trope of the fantasy genre, but dragonborn are a creative innovation an ill-concieved money grab designed to pander to the power fantasies of teenage WoW players.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Weirdly enough, I have a problem with dragonborn as well, but for a different reason... which is that I find races with obviously non-human physiologies, and especially reptilian physiologies, to be more evocative of science fiction than fantasy. I've no problem whatsoever with tieflings (which can be interpreted as everything from Melnibonean-type ancient races to Hellboy-like little demons to "fiend-touched" humans anyway), but somehow dragonborn as PCs don't work well for me. Neither did minotaurs, for that matter.

I think it's really a question of what one's fantasy influences were. Having read so much Greek and Norse mythology and so much Tolkien, I'm fine with elves, dwarves, hobbits... er, halflings and even ogres or giants as PC races, but somehow I get stuck on the others. Not at all a criticism of having dragonborn as a PC race; I can even understand why some people find elves hackneyed. (I don't, but they've always been rare and powerful in my games, so there's usually one player per campaign at best who actually plays one.)

 

[mattcolville]

I think I back WotC's decision to do away with the "you suck" levels.

While I agree that there's a rewarding aspect to sucking for a while before you're mediocre, that rewarding aspect is not the same as "fun."

Also, most of the stories of Young Arthur (or Skywalker, or Garion, or whoever the protagonist of those awful books by that one guy was) before he was a King are not D&D-stories. D&D doesn't model The Once and Future King, and never really has. Or The Lord of the Rings. Your D&D story shouldn't have a single hero with a great destiny whose actions irrevocably alter the world. You are one of a group and you go through several adventures.

Star Trek is the model here, not Star Wars. Lots of episodic content the sum of which results in a Legendary Team. Not a lone Hero who's single triumph obliterates the old order and everything that came before.

D&D models D&D.

 

[Fifth Element]

It's not cool, and it's not cool in a twelve year old writing fanfiction sense; it's a grown man who goes to work every day trying to be cool in a twelve year old writing fanfiction sense. It's someone jumping out of an airplane chugging mountain dew and wearing sunglasses while listening to the newest garage punk band. It's too much.

What a rude, dismissive way to describe playstyles that differ from your own. I'm not terribly excited by dragonborn myself, but I can be not terribly excited, and not insulting to those who are, at the same time.

 

[Fifth Element]

Weirdly enough, I have a problem with dragonborn as well, but for a different reason... which is that I find races with obviously non-human physiologies, and especially reptilian physiologies, to be more evocative of science fiction than fantasy. I've no problem whatsoever with tieflings (which can be interpreted as everything from Melnibonean-type ancient races to Hellboy-like little demons to "fiend-touched" humans anyway), but somehow dragonborn as PCs don't work well for me. Neither did minotaurs, for that matter.

Now this is a legitimate criticism of dragonborn. I can't agree on minotaurs, though. I love minotaurs.

 

[Fifth Element]

When the laws of physics are broken at level one, it makes levels 2-29 less awe inspiring.

All magic breaks the laws of physics, even the lowliest cantrip. That's why it's magic.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

All magic breaks the laws of physics, even the lowliest cantrip. That's why it's magic.

Early magic is limited though.

That's what I'm getting at - a mage can literally just stand there and pump out magic missiles for days on end. By making it so easy and prolific, it becomes cheapened.

I'm not saying Vancian system was the best (and honestly, did anyone here really use the word Vancian before the 4e arguments started?), but magic NEEDS to have limits. Otherwise, it's not magic.

Magic is supposed to be supernatural, not everyday and ordinary.