D&D 4E 4E Dislike - a hypothesis

[Chrono22]

^Don't you mean the astral sea? Cause...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Only?So in your perception there are no other elements that make 4E D&D? Hit points, beholders, vorpal swords, magic missiles, armor class, bastard swords, etc, etc.

Well, until recently, 4Ed magic missiles...missed. As has been pointed out MANY time before, 4Ed HP are not the same as those in previous editions...and there is much less variance between the HP of PCs with the same class & level because HD are gone. Etc., etc.

The Ship of Theseus is 3/4ths of the way through it's voyage, and enough changes have accumulated so that he notices it handles differently, especially when sailing at an angle instead of directly with the wind. It has lost some of the noncombat features it had when it left port. Other features, once lost, have been restored, albeit in altered form.

It is no longer the ship he started with in his eyes, noatter that some would call it the same.

What about the fact that hundreds of thousands of people who played previous editions of D&D say that 4E is real D&D, and are even playing campaigns similar to what they played before?

What about those players such as myself who find that the bulk of their past PCs don't translate into the new edition; whose campaigns, active since the mid-1980s and updated from AD&D to 3.5Ed can no longer be updated? What about the fact that hundreds of thousands DIDN'T convert?

Oh, the roleplaying may still be the same, but I could just as easily say the same of RP in any other FRPG.

Dannyalcatraz
Your view is no more and no less subjective than mine.

I did not say otherwise.

Really? Sounds like you called my view "essentially useless":

That's my view, that 4E shares enough with previous forms to still be D&D, and that to say otherwise is to follow a definition of D&D that is too narrow and subjective to be essentially useless.

 

[LostSoul]

Okay, what's the difference between a tool kit and an actual game?

It's about the difference between emphasizing certain choices - how those choices are made more and more meaningful, in a positive feedback loop - and giving options about what kinds of choices are meaningful, but leaving that up to the gaming group to decide.

edit: And the choices in that positive feedback loop are driving towards a specific goal, and endpoint - like Name Level.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Locke would state that 4e is still D&D even with the changes.

See I can bring up philosophy too

 

[Beginning of the End]

What's hilarious is how much flak I got for saying "Yo stop hating editions." I mean, really? You're going to get mad because I'm saying an edition isn't bad? Think that through, a bit.

No. They're annoyed because you're attempting to simultaneously trivialize and strawman their opinion in order to dismiss it.

"There's something you don't like about Edition X? You must be an irrational hater. You should just cut it out."

Seriously, I like Pathfinder and 4e. It can be done.

"Because if they'd just cut it out, then they'd have the same opinion I do. (Which is, of course, the right opinion.)"

4e is the newest edition of D&D that some people dislike, and in their dislike they claim that it does not represent their ideals for what a D&D game should be.

"I mean, they don't even really know that they want. They just claim they do."

What you're doing here is juvenile. It's little wonder that you're annoying people and getting called on it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Locke would state that 4e is still D&D even with the changes.

See I can bring up philosophy too

If we kept going, we could line up a host of philosophers on one side and a similar host on the other...

None with a definitive objective test for determining the identity of a thing from all potential viewpoints.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

No. They're annoyed because you're attempting to simultaneously trivialize and strawman their opinion in order to dismiss it.

No

"There's something you don't like about Edition X? You must be an irrational hater. You should just cut it out."

pe

"Because if they'd just cut it out, then they'd have the same opinion I do. (Which is, of course, the right opinion.)"

.avi

"I mean, they don't even really know that they want. They just claim they do."

What you're doing here is juvenile. It's little wonder that you're annoying people and getting called on it.

No, the irritating thing is that people like you can go out of their way to twist words and try to start an edition war where there is none.

On the bright side, at least you've stopped referring to yourself in the second person.

 

[Lanefan]

If we kept going, we could line up a host of philosophers on one side and a similar host on the other...

...and play out a pretty good combat scenario, albeit without a weapon in sight.

Lanefan

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

...and play out a pretty good combat scenario, albeit without a weapon in sight.

Lanefan

Well, if we set it up on Waxworld...

 

[Daazimal]

Most anybody can say why they hate it, or why they like it. This topic can be debated forever along with the numerous other additions come out. I think all the variables haven't been explained yet.
If what the topic explains, that those that started playing DnD prior to the release of 3rd edition, have a dislike for the fourth edition. You could just summarize that into the category, of play experience. Those that started to play prior to the 2000 release, haven't been exposed to the game long enough and all the elements of the prior edition to form an opinion of that edition. So that leaves alot of newer players switching to 3rd edition. That rules out second edition entirely, now take 3rd edition, new player exposed to that era would have a remarkable amount of experience of play. Then all of a sudden out comes 3.5, which is has its differences but easily adaptable. The same as 1e was to 2e, very easily adaptable.
Not 4th edition, not adaptable to any other addition, so any experienced player would have to learn a whole new system over again. But players have been doing that for years. Supplements and rulebooks changed over the years. Editions changed and some were adaptable others were not. If anyone ever changed from second to third edition knows that it is a lot of work, taking an existing world in a previous edition and adapting it to a newer edition.
My opinion is that, with the years 3rd edition has been, you have gamers out that designed their own campaign, game worlds. Used these creative juices, to improve on the rule set given and with the ever increasing editions takes an amount of effort to let go of this wonderful thing they have produced from there own mind. Because most additions were easily adaptable, that it was unnecessary to change large amounts of information to convert over to the new game system. Not only would the all statistical elements would change, i.e monsters, NPCs, PCs etc., but also the story element will have to be rewritten to reflect all the changes imposed.
I saw a post earlier about a water craft and the differences imposed earlier. All those differences have to reflect throughout the entire story so not one element changes but all.
I don't think it is hate, that keeps most players from trying 4th edition, or a newer edition. I think it is those that have created something, or are happy and have fun with that they have and enjoy it all the more because it is there creation. If a new player has run the same character since 3rd edition made its debute, and is still in an ongoing adventure, where millions of possibilities exist.
To be blunt about it, I think that players who don't switch are happy with what they have and are more willing to see it through to its end, before the possible switch would take place. I know i didn't switch from second to third until 2004, when demand new material made it an obvious choice, but as a group we were equally happy running those second edition games just as eagerly as we were for the new material. But when it came time to switch all our existing material, we mine as well had started over from scratch, and the time we had spent on it before hand had seemed just a wasted effort.