D&D 4E 4E: DM-proofing the game

[Counterspin]

I've definitely been in games where we dealt with traps nonmechanically, by which I mean the DM described the trap and we dealt with it through ways other than a simple check, and I'm pretty much exclusively 3e and later in pedigree.

 

[king_ghidorah]

Not necessarily "GM as adversary" - in narrativist play, for example, the GM should be trying to facilitate the players' ability to make the thematic statements they wish to make.

That's one reason why I talked about "narrative control", to make it fairly explicit what I'm referring to. I'm not talking about a competition for fun, I'm talking about who gets to control the events in the gameworld. Letting the players do more of that, and the GM less, may well be win-win in terms of playing pleasure, but it is still a transfer of narrative control from GM to players.

Any time there is any sort of rule in an RPG, it removes narrative control from the GM. However, not all surrender of narrative control places it into the hands of the players. A skill resolution system forces the GM to give narrative control for resolution to the system, changing the GM from the resolver of tasks to the resolver of when tasks will be executed.

I would argue that anything that defines the narrative (background, description, etc.) also externalizes narrative control, even if the definition originally comes from the GM. Even campaign background that creates informal "rules" restricts potential actions and outcomes in play. Thus even system founded on pure GM fiat (say a diceless narrative system) creates rules and restrictions on the GM based on character definition and creation, expectations of genre and setting, etc.)

Loss of narrative control is not only inevitable, but desirable, since the nature of RPGs is not for a single narrator to create a story, but for a group to have a group game. Group processes necessarily involve creating multiple loci of control -- and thus the GM must give up narrative control as part of the social contract, or else there is no point of characters taking any actions or even being in the game.

 

[Thaumaturge]

Loss of narrative control is not only inevitable, but desirable, since the nature of RPGs is not for a single narrator to create a story, but for a group to have a group game. Group processes necessarily involve creating multiple loci of control -- and thus the GM must give up narrative control as part of the social contract, or else there is no point of characters taking any actions or even being in the game.

I agree. However, theoretically there comes a point where, if the DM loses enough narrative control, his role in the process is marginalized. If his only job to to mediate the success or failure of task resolution, he fills a role that basic AI can fill instead.

Thaumaturge.

 

[Counterspin]

Given that there are a variety of games which give the players far more narrative control than 4e is likely to, I think we're many editions away from reaching that point, if we ever do.

 

[king_ghidorah]

I agree. However, theoretically there comes a point where, if the DM loses enough narrative control, his role in the process is marginalized. If his only job to to mediate the success or failure of task resolution, he fills a role that basic AI can fill instead.

Thaumaturge.

Not necessarily. There could reach a point where lack of narrative control by anyone means there is no GM, and task resolution mediation is made fully external. Examples abound in board games, for example, where rules mediate action without a referee. This could theoretically fit into a narrative game with shared governance, but without a good conceit it might not be very fun....

 

[Hussar]

Obviously you experiences must be proof, then. In other words, I am not wrong because I have had it happen. Not only that, but there has been trap-detailing supplements for D&D since the game was invented.

Name one published by TSR. Name one instance in core where that is true.

About the closest thing I can think of is the secret doors in Tomb of Horrors where you had to explain how you opened the secret doors. But, we weren't talking about secret doors (which is a totally different mechanic), we were talking about traps. Where in the DMG did it detail how a spring loaded dart trap functioned? Page please?