4e e3?

[Korgoth]

A while back, on another board, Geoffrey McKinney theorized that you could an entire campaign merely with the Holmes Basic rulebook... the blue one with the man-at-arms, wizard and dragon on the cover. That would be a world in which the highest level possible was 3, and so certain monsters were particularly fearsome, etc. It's an interesting idea though I'm not a Holmes man so I suppose I never thought about it too much.

I'm not a 4E man either, but I wonder if the same sort of thing is possible with it? Since the Starter Set just came out (and evidently has some monsters in it), and the Rouse revealed that the character building tools on the website will be free up through level 3, it seems as though it would be possible with just the starter set (and maybe a couple of adjuncts, like KoTS) to run an "E3" game of that nature.

There seem to be some things favor of it. For example, the fact that evidently low level characters in 4E are still really powerful when compared with commoners (having lots of HP and powers and such) means that a 3rd level party will be really heroic in nature, and a single 3rd level dude is a man to be reckoned with. In addition to the power level in general, the encounter balancing system would give you a good method of eyeballing what will or won't fly against X number of characters of Y level.

Against it, there's the fact that the game appears to discourage henchmen, companions and summoned/animated helpers. You'd probably want those around in certain cases... I'm not sure it's really old school if you don't rely on flunkies to a certain extent! Also, there's apparently an odd non-random method of giving out treasure. Are there random tables also? I think you want to be generous with treasure, because it would be nice if the party could stand up to some of the more powerful critters. And that's the last point... it seems that some of the iconic D&D critters might be simply too tough for a 3rd level party of whatever number. Can say 8 3rd levelers really take on a Mind Flayer or a Beholder? I don't know.

Anyway, just a thought.

 

[Ry]

I heartily endorse this idea, and it would work. Because I love my baby, I want to say "YES, play more games beginning with E and ending with a number!"

At the same time, Storming the Wizards Tower is in open playtest. If you want something that was designed from the ground up for fun in the shortest time possible, getting the rules in playtest form is a total steal. I've had to admit that Vincent Baker is currently a better game designer than I am.

 

[TerraDave]

3rd level charecters have a fair amount going on. But so do 3rd level monsters. You could, maybe, take on a level 7 solo, or a level, oh, 10, normal. (though it would be swingy and dangerous).

If you had some rule allowing access to rituals above level 3...it might actually work.

 

[Korgoth]

@Ryan:

It occurs to me that I didn't explicitly mention E6 in my post... though of course it was on my mind! Hopefully it's on everybody's mind around here, since it's such an interesting take on 3E and very much in the same spirit as the Holmes experiment.

If you had some rule allowing access to rituals above level 3...it might actually work.

Hmm. Perhaps you could just remove the level restrictions on them altogether?

It's nice to hear that a 3rd Level party could take on up to a level 10 monster. Is that a party of 5? I wonder how high a party of 8 could go?

 

[Rechan]

It's nice to hear that a 3rd Level party could take on up to a level 10 monster. Is that a party of 5? I wonder how high a party of 8 could go?

Yes, a standard party is assumed to be 5 pcs.

Before 4e was published, folks were using the D&D Experience characters vs. monsters people had taken pictures of in the MM. One gentleman who ran a group of 5 or 6 1st level PCs against two 6th level monsters (gnolls of some stripe), a supposedly balanced encounter. The PCs managed to kill the gnolls, but had one or two character deaths. IIRC, the stats for those gnolls have changed since D&D XP (more HP, do less damage). Another experiment had 5 1st level PCs vs. a 7th level elite (an Orc Blood Rager); two fatalities in that group, but they prevailed.

It's worth noting that a level equivalent encounter in 4E is similar to a level appropriate CR encounter in 3e; the encounter i a minimal threat to the players.

So yes. Parties can definitely take on monsters well above their level. (The encounter should just be with less). When I get access to my books this evening, I'll draw some more concrete examples in theory. I fully believe a 3rd level party could take on a single troll (level 9). Naturally the system requires some playtesting however, to see how much a beating those low level characters can take from bigger monsters.

 

[Ry]

That Troll is Grendel. Don't approach lightly.

 

[mattdm]

One downside is that low-level characters don't have as many different options in each encounter, which could a) make things get a bit boring and b) tend towards shorter adventuring days then necessary. If I were going to restrict the game to three levels, I would consider giving out more powers in some way. Maybe:

1st level: gain an additional 2nd-level utility power (one level early)
2nd level: gain an additional 1st-level encounter power
3rd level: gain an additional 1st-level daily power

With the restriction that no more than one daily or utility power can be used per encounter.

And because feats are an important part of character customization but don't really have the oomph they have in 3E, I might also consider giving a bonus feat at 3rd level (assuming you don't go the E6 route here).

 

[vagabundo]

Interesting idea. I believe this e3 world would be a fabulous but very dangerous place to adventure in.

Some random thoughts:

- 1st-3rd level characters are fairly tough in 4e and a large party could take down all sorts of dangerous monsters, but they would have to plan and prepare carefully. If the level difference is greater than 3 - so level 6+ monsters for 3rd level - you will get character deaths, but that is all part of the setting.

- Companions, henchmen and familiars and such are not part of the standard 4e party, but this concept is not standard and I would allow them to have 1st level companions when they reach 3rd level. It would be the name level for 4e e3 and maybe they could spend XP to recruit more. As an aside a solo - 1 PC - adventure I'm creating at the moment will have a ranger and a wolf companion, the wolf from the MM and it will level into a Dire wolf.

- I would be carefully what rituals I'd allow. They could easy change the flavour of the game, fortunately they are easy to control.

- No random magic tables, however there is a list of sample treasure parcels per level in the DMG. Conveniently listed with numbers - 1 to 10 - and generic entries.

So for 1st level:

1 Magic item level 5
...
8 120gp, or 100gp + 200sp, or 1 100gp gem + 200 sp
...

So it wouldn't be too difficult to create them or just eyeball a treasure from the PHB after rolling a d10.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Exchange height for breadth is basically what made E6 "work" (at last for those that used it - I never had the chance to do so ).

A possible idea: Instead of gaining levels, characters can learn additional feats and powers. But instead of getting more power uses, characters just get more choices.

Currently, this wouldn't be too big, but once more "splats" hit us, we will have a multitude of powers and feats to check out.

If you really wanted, you could allow gaining higher level powers and more powers per day. I am not sure if a 29 level daily might be too powerful, though.

Maybe one could use the tiers. Using a Paragon Tier power requires you to spend two "slots", using an Epic tier power costs three "slots". Or you do something even more different - allow people to "charge up" their slots with basic/at-will attacks or simply "non-actions": Spend a standard action to be able to use one daily power, or spend two standard actions to use one epic power.

This reminds me of a thought of "where D&D 4 could have gone" - power learning could not have been linked so strictly to levels. Instead, everyone gets a "power repertoire", similar to a 3.x spellbook. You can learn new powers (similar to rituals in 4E) from other sources - training with a martial arts master or by attending a wizard academy - and just the level of powers is limited by your level, and how many you use per encounter or day is restricted by level.

 

[vagabundo]

Exchange height for breadth is basically what made E6 "work" (at last for those that used it - I never had the chance to do so ).

A possible idea: Instead of gaining levels, characters can learn additional feats and powers. But instead of getting more power uses, characters just get more choices.

Currently, this wouldn't be too big, but once more "splats" hit us, we will have a multitude of powers and feats to check out.

If you really wanted, you could allow gaining higher level powers and more powers per day. I am not sure if a 29 level daily might be too powerful, though.

Maybe one could use the tiers. Using a Paragon Tier power requires you to spend two "slots", using an Epic tier power costs three "slots". Or you do something even more different - allow people to "charge up" their slots with basic/at-will attacks or simply "non-actions": Spend a standard action to be able to use one daily power, or spend two standard actions to use one epic power.

Yup, need to have a new set of capstone feats. The part I always liked about E6 was that you could 'spend' XP on gaining new powers after the levels tapped out.

I think you could use the multiclass feats to gain extra powers, just re-jig them a little and remove some of the restrictions - but possibly only allow them at 3rd level and require twice the amount of XP that a normal feat would cost. So a 3rd level fighter could for 500xp* buy a feat or for 1000xp* buy a muticlass feat, like Arcane initiate. You could have as many multiclass feats as you like.

* not sure what the XP amounts should be, just some number from the top of my head.