4E/Earlier Editions Hybrids: Why the difficulty?

[Edena_of_Neith]

Everyone keeps telling me that 4E is totally incompatible with earlier editions.
Is this really true, folks?

From what I'm reading, I'm seeing a lot of interesting 4E conceptions that could be plugged in to 3E characters, and vice versa.
For example, Healing Surges would be very useful in 3E. They would put an end to the 5 Minute Adventuring Day (as people are calling it.) Yes, they represent a shift in the concept of hit points, but not *so much* of a shift that it cannot be extrapolated over. Hit points are still metaphorical representations of various concepts ... of how long your character can remain standing and fight, basically ... in either edition.

The once per encounter abilities, the once per day abilities, remind me of a situation where a 3rd Edition character simply took a *lot* of feats, and was granted a *lot* of feats each level, plus a number of innate spell-like abilities at 1st level, plus more as he advanced. And the player gets to choose even more, as he progresses along Paths.
Those could make for a tough 3rd Edition character (but the monsters could be equally tough.)

The Vancian system does not exist in 4th Edition, but it could be put in. Why not? I'm told the Combat System in 4E is incompatible with the Vancian system, but I would think a clever group could figure out a compromise.

There are a lot of neat things in 4E, and a lot of neat things in the older editions. Why not a hybrid?
Nobody seems to be doing this ... they are either one way (4E) or another (previous editions) and it isn't clear to me why this is so.
Because, to be honest, both systems seem to have some really great elements in them. The potential for a lot of fun. (And heck, aren't a lot of people having fun with 4E? And a lot, with the older editions? So, there must be some good stuff here, and people are enjoying it, and saying so.)

Who says a hybrid is impossible? Not me.
Yet most others say it is. Would someone lay out why?

Edena_of_Neith

 

[Derren]

They would put an end to the 5 Minute Adventuring Day (as people are calling it.)

A little off topic, no they wouldn't
The 5 minute adventuring day is alive and well in 4E and you can't prevent them with mechanics, but only with good quest design to either put a time limit or other consequences of taking to long into the quest or by making the story so interesting that the players want to continue.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Everyone keeps telling me that 4E is totally incompatible with earlier editions.
Is this really true, folks?
<snip>

Who says a hybrid is impossible? Not me.
Yet most others say it is. Would someone lay out why?

Edena_of_Neith

I don't know that anyone is saying that you couldn't make a hybrid.

I do know that many- such as myself- are saying that 4Ed is different enough that conversions & updates of 3.X or previous edition campaigns & PCs are not worth the time and trouble...or are next to impossible.

Part of that has to do with the fact that certain basic defaults from previous editions have been shunted off into 4Ed releases that are not in the first 3 books...meaning that people have had to wait to even have the proper tools in their hands to even start doing a conversion.

Part of that has to do with certain incompatible (initial) design decisions, both exclusionary and inclusive- an alignment system that seems truncated, a lack of non-blaster roles for mages, a bar on the use of necromancy, different core PHB races, etc. After decades of expanding player choices over succeeding editions, 4Ed narrows player choices.

And as Derren said, the short "work-day" hasn't been eliminated by 4Ed, either. There was a big thread about it just last week... Once PCs run out of daily powers? Naptime! (IME- as well as for others in that thread- this is a symptom of playstyle, not system.)

Still, there are certain elements in 4Ed that are very good.

But are they worth the time and effort to hybridize with earlier editions? I don't think so.

 

[Hjorimir]

A little off topic, no they wouldn't
The 5 minute adventuring day is alive and well in 4E and you can't prevent them with mechanics, but only with good quest design to either put a time limit or other consequences of taking to long into the quest or by making the story so interesting that the players want to continue.

The 5-minute work day may be alive in your neck of the woods, but we haven't seen it 'round these parts. I'm averaging about 6-8 encounters a day in my 4e campaign right now.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The 5-minute work day may be alive in your neck of the woods, but we haven't seen it 'round these parts. I'm averaging about 6-8 encounters a day in my 4e campaign right now.

As said before- its not the system, its the playstyle. PCs can only rest if the DM lets them, after all.

 

[Henrix]

Necromancer Games certainly think it's possible:

Second, Peterson finally reveals plans to bring First Edition Feel to 4E: "In addition to our support for Pathfinder, we believe in supporting the most current official version of D&D--and that is 4E. We plan to create a community-sponsored, grass-roots development of some old-school rules alternatives for 4E, not to replace 4E but to supplement it. To let old school gamers like me play the game we want but with the modern rules and the modern tech," Peterson says. "Keep an eye on our site and boards in the coming months as we start this process. A design team is in place. But we intend to enlist the help of all of you--the real old school players--to help design the rules that you think are lacking, much like Paizo used an open playtest to develop the Pathfinder rules."

The have a forum up for the discussion about it.

I think it sounds like good fun - there are certainly things I miss in 4e.

 

[CapnZapp]

Not impossible, just not worth the effort.

From what I'm reading, I'm seeing a lot of interesting 4E conceptions that could be plugged in to 3E characters, and vice versa.

With "could be" as the key words.

Essentially it would be a rewrite of that system.

(Which incidentally I once had hopes Pathfinder would be doing)

As it is now, I don't see a single d20 system with 4E sensibilities, and therefore I am playing, you've guessed it, 4E, warts and all.

 

[Hussar]

As said before- its not the system, its the playstyle. PCs can only rest if the DM lets them, after all.

That's not really true. The players, given very low level resources, can rest in relative safety almost any time they want. Unless every single game you play has a time limit, there's no getting around it, regardless of what the DM wants. Wand of Arcane Lock, Rope Trick, heck, a decent hide check and some camouflage and you can rest.

But, y'know what? Players generally don't rest until they feel like they have to. When the healing spells run out, they rest. My group now carries healing wands and we NEVER see the 5 minute adventuring day any more. Regularly have 8 encounters per day.

Before we used that crutch, it would be one to three encounters per day.

So, IME, mechanics most certainly can have a huge effect on the 5 minute day. YMMV and all that.

 

[vagabundo]

Keeping this thread on Track:

I think there is a ton of compatibly between 3e and 4e. You could move modules/rules and concepts pretty easily between the two.

Now what long reaching game affects this will have is not something that you could guess at unless it was play tested. But I think most DMs will have a good feel for what rules and subsystems would fit in with their game.

Compatibly between 3e-4e is better than compatibility between 2e-3e IMO. It is asynchronous though, up-converting from 3e to 4e is probably easier.

I could see a hybrid 3e using the 4e D20 combat system, NPCs, Monsters and encounter design.

 

[Piratecat]

This thread isn't really about the five minute adventuring day. Thanks for not sidetracking it.