4E/Earlier Editions Hybrids: Why the difficulty?

[Dice4Hire]

I am currently using a few $e things in my 3.5 gmaes.

BLB (Base level Bonus, the +1 you get to Ac saves, etc on even levels)
In 3.5, I am giving the bonus to AC, Skills, and a single save each time (so not fort, ref, will, but only fort, for example) This is helping to let characters spread out their skills a lot as the BLB applies to max ranks. So instead of keeping 2+Int(+human?) skills maxed, they can max another skill or get low ranks in several others.


4E monsters. I have been using 4E monsters with minimal changes in my 3.5 games, though they only get their bloodied value of hit points, and it has been very successful. The monsters have a lot cooler abilities, and they hit a bit harder. It it taking the players a bit of tiem getting used to being knocked prone, being marked and some other effects that rarely if ever happen in 3.5. But it makes the monsters far more unique. And more dangerous.


APS. I am allowing APs(yes, I know they were in 3.5 too) The APs are good for extra actions, or for second wind, though they can be used as free actions. I am giving two at the start of a day and one after every encounter, to help make up for the monsters being a bit tougher.

And so far it is very successful.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Converting from 2nd edition to 3rd edition also didn´t work that well... but it was no problem using 2nd edition adventures and just convert it more or less on the fly... ... ... as long as the enemies were monsters... if yo had classed enemies on the enemy side, converting was either making them way underpowered or way overpowered, depending on class and the time and effort you spent into exploiting feats...

I don´t know how it really works for 4th edition, but i have already played a Level 0 adventure using minions as enemies and nonclassed PC´s and it actually did work quite well...

 

[The Halfling]

If someone is willing to put in work, then it is not impossible. However, evidence suggests that it is not practical at all. How could one conclude this?

4e has been out for almost a year now. Can anyone point to one...just one...previous edition adventure that has been completely converted to 4e? I've looked (hard) and have yet to find at single completed effort.

Sure, there are numerous efforts in various stages of completion. This highlights that converting an material from previous editions to 4e is not like dusting crops; so much so, that it is pratically impossible. If conversion is this difficult, then it stands to reason that hybrids are not feasible.

Here you go Tales from the Rusty Dragon: Burnt Offerings Conversion

 

[caudor]

Here you go Tales from the Rusty Dragon: Burnt Offerings Conversion

Ah yes, thank you. I stand corrected.

Thank you.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

The trouble is that 3E and 4E are all integrated systems where most of the mechanics are linked together. If you tweak something, it has a ripple effect on other parts of the system. It makes combining the two systems a real pain, as any change you make has a pile of unintended consequences.

The mistake people make with this sort of hybrid is to base the system on 3E or 4E. What you should do is to base it on 1E/2E. 1E/2E is not an integrated system, and you can make wholesale changes without that ripple effect. You can add healing surges, the skill system from 3E/4E, BAB, feats, 4E marking, 4E movement(which is beyond wonderful in AD&D), or whatever without severe consequences for the rest of the system.

 

[tomBitonti]

Compatible ... forward, or backward?

I think the two directions of compatibility (say, can a 3.5E monster be used in 4E, and, in the other direction, can a 4E monster be used in 3.5E) should be considered separately. Also, a separation should be made for converting monsters as opposed to converting PCs (and NPC monsters).

From what I can see, converting from 4E to 3.5E, at least for monsters, looks easy. Or rather, I think you should be able to use 4E monsters in 3.5E combat as wholly new creatures. Converting monsters from 3.5E to 4E looks hard.

I don't think that PCs and NPCs convert either way.

 

[Estlor]

Bingo! You use the 3.5 stats & mechanics because 4.0 isn't compatible.

If you read the whole post you would have noticed hit points was the only aspect of the 3.5 monster I was using in my 4E conversion. Hit points are the only thing "incompatible" between the two versions. I mean, unless you want monsters to hang around forever because they have a lot more hit points than normal in 3.5.

Quick check between the two editions:

3.5 Movement - 5 foot squares.
4 Movement - 5 foot squares.

3.5 Defenses - AC, Fort, Ref, Will.
4 Defenses - AC, Fort, Ref, Will.

3.5 Attack mechanic - Roll d20, add BAB.
4 Attack mechanic - Roll d20, add attack bonus.

3.5 Skill resolution - Roll d20, add skill modifier, overcome a static DC.
4 Skill resolution - Roll d20, add skill modifier, overcome a static DC.

3.5 Vitality Measurement - Hit points based off of X number of die rolls.
4 Vitality Measurement - Hit points based off of static number from role.

Yup, everything save how hit points are calculated is the same. Oh darn, it's so inconvenient I have to look at a monster entry in the 3.5 MM to look up one number before I use the monster.

 

[Shazman]

For Starters, Dragon Magazine has released several adventures in both 3e and 4e. I'm not quite clear whether those were 3e adventures updated to 4e, or 4e adventures that were converted for 3e, but either way it makes the point that such a conversion is possible.

If by conversion you mean completely rewrite the adventure from the ground up and slap the same name on it, then I guess conversion is possible. I haven't seen any 3e adventures officialy converted to 4E yet.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

If you read the whole post you would have noticed hit points was the only aspect of the 3.5 monster I was using in my 4E conversion. Hit points are the only thing "incompatible" between the two versions. I mean, unless you want monsters to hang around forever because they have a lot more hit points than normal in 3.5.

Quick check between the two editions:

3.5 Movement - 5 foot squares.
4 Movement - 5 foot squares.

3.5 Defenses - AC, Fort, Ref, Will.
4 Defenses - AC, Fort, Ref, Will.

3.5 Attack mechanic - Roll d20, add BAB.
4 Attack mechanic - Roll d20, add attack bonus.

3.5 Skill resolution - Roll d20, add skill modifier, overcome a static DC.
4 Skill resolution - Roll d20, add skill modifier, overcome a static DC.

3.5 Vitality Measurement - Hit points based off of X number of die rolls.
4 Vitality Measurement - Hit points based off of static number from role.

Yup, everything save how hit points are calculated is the same. Oh darn, it's so inconvenient I have to look at a monster entry in the 3.5 MM to look up one number before I use the monster.

Honestly alot of the conversion "issues" have to do with how the monster is written up in 4E. It's pretty pared down / streamlined in 4E. For my notes when running a 3.5 game I use the 4E template as a guide for ease of use.

If your players arent jerks (then again how would they know...) about it I'm pretty sure that you can use 4E monsters in a 3.5 game seamlessly. For the "defenses" just subtract 10 and you get 3.5 saving throw bonuses.

My issues come with things going the other way from 3.5 to 4E. Personally, for me it has to do more with the implementation of the design philosophy than the design philosophy itself. Powers, really REALLY rub me the wrong way. I hate the way that the new classes and races are designed around powers. It's irrational and it makes no sense (by this I mean ME. My dislike of the system is irrational and makes no sense). If this were a different game I'dve thought that it was brilliant. But since it's D&D, I absolutely hate it.

Most other things about 4E I like (Encounter Budgets, Concise monster stat blocks, 2 +1 Stat boosts every 4th level, 10 minute rests, etc) but the Class, race structure is more than enough to keep me away from playing the game. Also I don't particularly care for the treasure parcel structure (but Wolf Ratbane worked a similar method for 3.5 games so I'll try it there before I go totally nuclear on it).

Yeah but using 4E stuff for 3.5? Absolutely possible, so much so that on a certain level 4E is just another 3.5 variant. It'll take a little more work to make things mesh just right (healing surges I'm looking at you...) but yeah there's so much crunchy goodness to be ganked from 4E for 3.5 games it's ridiculous. Like I said I'm not a big fan of 4E, but it does have it's uses...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

That's not really true. The players, given very low level resources, can rest in relative safety almost any time they want. <edit> YMMV and all that.

So as not to derail the thread any further, I'll just say I have personal experience from the contrary from both sides of the screen- of which you are aware, since we've gone 'round about this before- and I'll just say that our mileage does vary, and we can agree to disagree.

Hit points are the only thing "incompatible" between the two versions.

I disagree with this.

The mechanical structure of daily/encounter/utility powers can be an issue, as can dealing with alignment, 30 levels of power in one game and 20 in the other and so forth, can all create headaches for conversion efforts.

Not that it can't be done...but I certainly don't want to deal with those and other conversion issues.