Walking Dad
First Post
Good I'm not the only one advertising your system
Very interested to 'join' the (r)evolution.
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NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
D&D 4E 4E Essentials Modern
- Thread starter dirklancer
- Start date
Very interested to 'join' the (r)evolution.
dirklancer
Explorer
I was also thinking that for something like a sci-fi thing, races could replace the attribute-based Core classes. And what other skills do you think needed to be added or modified for a Modern system? I was thinking that something like Conspiracy from GW could act as the default Arcana/Religion skill, use Science and use Mechanics for things like repairing and creating things. For vehicles, I don't know if there should be a separate skill or if it could be handled more easily with Dex checks.
And here is the initial list of careers that I was working on: Martial Artist, Weapon Master, Soldier, Burglar, Gunslinger, Bodyguard, Daredevil, Athlete, Academic, Scientist, Techie, Medic, Investigator, Con Artist, Personality, and Born Leader.
And here is the initial list of careers that I was working on: Martial Artist, Weapon Master, Soldier, Burglar, Gunslinger, Bodyguard, Daredevil, Athlete, Academic, Scientist, Techie, Medic, Investigator, Con Artist, Personality, and Born Leader.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Well, I think for a more modern feel I'd split it between Skills, which are pretty much the 4e skill system, and 'Knowledges' which would be picking up specific specialized understanding of how to do something, like 'Helicopter Pilot' or 'Computer Programming' or whatever. Using a Knowledge would rely on a skill check, which might use different skills depending on what the task is, but in general having a Knowledge indicates that the character has a fairly detailed understanding of that specific thing. They would be very much like proficiencies or languages mechanically, just enabling the character to use specific equipment or do specific things. It could also work in a way similar to rituals/martial practices. It wasn't a kind of distinction that was very important in 4e since everyone's 'career' is basically Adventurer and the game avoids focusing much on details of what you know outside of that. In a modernesque type of setting though where characters are likely to have deep technical knowledge about complex subjects that is hard to pick up it seems more necessary. You could just make a huge laundry-list of skills, but I actually like the generalized skill system. Knowledges would undermine its flexibility a bit, but you can probably strike a good balance somewhere.
dirklancer
Explorer
Yeah, I agree that the generalized skill system works best for some genres. It really depends on what flavor you are going for. Personally I prefer the more cinematic feel of the generalized skills, in which your Scientist just has Science (or Science! if you are a fan of GURPS) where he or she knows just about everything science related. Some groups might want to know what each of his PhD's are, but for me that just bogs down play. I would stick with the simpler generalized list, but that is what I am trying to work out. What skills should stay, what need to be added, and what needs to go. Dungeoneering is one that needs to go, and some aspects of it could be easily covered by a Mechanics skill and Thievery. The vehicle operation question is the one I am debating the most. Part of me thinks a Vehicle Operation skill is needed for Modern, but the other part of me wants to just simplify things.
As for the crunchy bits, I think the direction I am taking right now is still 20 levels, one Core and 1 Career at creation. At level 6 and 16 you can decide to stick with your current career or switch to a new one. At level 11 you can decide to stay with your Core class or pick a new one. If you stick with it, you get more benefits with your Core/Class abilities but you are far more focused. If you switch your Core or Class, you get more versatility at the cost of the slight power increase of the focused character. What do you think of that idea?
Also going back to what Mustrum Ridcully talked about, maybe work different roles into each career. My current advancement scheme has characters gaining 4 Basic (At-Will), 4 Utility, and 4 Expert (Encounter) powers from their Career. I was thinking having some of the powers available correspond to different character roles, so you have the option about what role in combat your character takes. So your Con Artist might have one power that tricks another character into fighting for him, and another that impairs a whole group of enemies. So you could focus on one specific role over your development or have a couple elements of each. Thoughts?
As for the crunchy bits, I think the direction I am taking right now is still 20 levels, one Core and 1 Career at creation. At level 6 and 16 you can decide to stick with your current career or switch to a new one. At level 11 you can decide to stay with your Core class or pick a new one. If you stick with it, you get more benefits with your Core/Class abilities but you are far more focused. If you switch your Core or Class, you get more versatility at the cost of the slight power increase of the focused character. What do you think of that idea?
Also going back to what Mustrum Ridcully talked about, maybe work different roles into each career. My current advancement scheme has characters gaining 4 Basic (At-Will), 4 Utility, and 4 Expert (Encounter) powers from their Career. I was thinking having some of the powers available correspond to different character roles, so you have the option about what role in combat your character takes. So your Con Artist might have one power that tricks another character into fighting for him, and another that impairs a whole group of enemies. So you could focus on one specific role over your development or have a couple elements of each. Thoughts?
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
I agree that the generalized skill system is very nice. I think replacing Arcana with Science and Religion with Mechanics about does it. I agree with the Science! concept, don't parse it up too small. There are some genre though where things like the distinction between a Pilot and a Computer Hacker can be important, so just a general technology use skill (which is what I would envisage Mechanics as basically) might not be distinctive enough. That would be where knowledges could come in. They could be class based.
Personally I think the 4e roles are too combat focused for most modern genres. They are a fine thing, but you'll find that in most modern/futuristic games non-combat stuff takes a bigger role and has more depth to it. At the same time once you get into modern firearm type weapons combat itself doesn't easily fit in the same pattern that 4e has. It really doesn't make much sense to have 2 guys with fully automatic weapons and one 'defends' and the other 'strikes'. It just doesn't really match up with existing character archetypes very well. I can see it when it comes to melee combat, but maybe instead of roles there are professions. They can be quite generalized, so you have basically Military, Academic, Professional, Law Enforcement, Engineering, etc. Those would be somewhere halfway between a 4e class and a 4e role. Now your overlapping 'specialty' can come in. One guy is a Helicopter Pilot, another guy is a Computer Hacker, etc. You could then pretty easily pick up different specialties at whichever levels, and also possibly change profession. This way you can have say "Military Helicopter Pilot" or "Professional Noble" etc. Actually starts to get pretty close to what was going on in Traveler, lol.
dirklancer
Explorer
Agreed on both counts. But tell me more of how you see the Knowledge as working. I wouldn't want to have something that would only have limited utility, but I agree that it would allow a lot more individuality for characters.
That is what I am working on with the Careers in this little project. There are going to be combat focused ones, but I am trying to flesh out the non-combat ones so that they have things to do in combat aside from shoot baddies. Like for the Con Artist I was thinking of an at-will called "He Did It" where you make an attack versus Will and if you succeed, the target makes a basic attack against another enemy. Things like that. I am going through my old d20 Modern books for some inspiration. This biggest time consuming thing is working out the powers for each career, especially the non-combat classes. With the combat ones, you can easily crib powers from other sources. The non-combat ones require a bit more creativity, and suggestions are appreciated.
That is what I am working on with the Careers in this little project. There are going to be combat focused ones, but I am trying to flesh out the non-combat ones so that they have things to do in combat aside from shoot baddies. Like for the Con Artist I was thinking of an at-will called "He Did It" where you make an attack versus Will and if you succeed, the target makes a basic attack against another enemy. Things like that. I am going through my old d20 Modern books for some inspiration. This biggest time consuming thing is working out the powers for each career, especially the non-combat classes. With the combat ones, you can easily crib powers from other sources. The non-combat ones require a bit more creativity, and suggestions are appreciated.
deadsmurf
First Post
Non-combat classes don't necessarily have to have to have real combat powers - just at least one that could be useful in combat.
It's going to be quite difficult to fill in real powers for every single career, especially if each one has more than say, 3 powers - which is one reason I suggested capping at 10 levels. Really, progression can be slowed with fewer levels and still allow long term campaigns. Double the XP needed per level from D&D (unlike GW, which is halved)
It's going to be quite difficult to fill in real powers for every single career, especially if each one has more than say, 3 powers - which is one reason I suggested capping at 10 levels. Really, progression can be slowed with fewer levels and still allow long term campaigns. Double the XP needed per level from D&D (unlike GW, which is halved)
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Well, you could make more and varied knowledges, and things that give bonuses to knowledges, etc. In effect they can be a bit like feats and a bit like class features. If it makes sense they can have a power format. Let players make choices at each level. A soldier might really want to learn how to use a machine gun, but OTOH maybe some basic skill in knife fighting is good too. To an extent characters can shade themselves in the direction of specific combat roles by what resources they select for their character.
Honestly the Essentials Martial sort of format really isn't at all bad. Utility powers will work for a lot of classes, but they can be given other options they can use instead. Maybe a once-per-day +5 to a stat bonus or a specific skill. These are already basically feat type benefits and you can keep the 1 feat every 2 levels if you want.
Really the question is how to reasonably well support both combat heavy and more combat light games. The latter usually have a more gritty combat feel to them, but not necessarily. I'd aim for the more cinematic end of an intrigue/investigation/traveleresque space opera etc. You can still do crazy heroic combat centered, but you can also prospect asteroids and investigate alien objects.
Honestly the Essentials Martial sort of format really isn't at all bad. Utility powers will work for a lot of classes, but they can be given other options they can use instead. Maybe a once-per-day +5 to a stat bonus or a specific skill. These are already basically feat type benefits and you can keep the 1 feat every 2 levels if you want.
Really the question is how to reasonably well support both combat heavy and more combat light games. The latter usually have a more gritty combat feel to them, but not necessarily. I'd aim for the more cinematic end of an intrigue/investigation/traveleresque space opera etc. You can still do crazy heroic combat centered, but you can also prospect asteroids and investigate alien objects.
dirklancer
Explorer
Actually I am not having too much trouble with 20 levels, only because it is pretty easy to find powers from different existing sources to crib things from. But it would be easy enough to just use 10 levels with the format I am trying. I like the idea about the slower level progression too. I think its more a matter of cutting down to the essential careers for now to see if it even works.
The non-combat classes are slowly coming together. I see them as more impairing enemies or boosting allies in combat than anything else. They will have lower damage output, but still serve a valuable function. I agree about the Essentials style Martial characters too. I like that they eliminated Daily powers for them, because it never made much sense to me that a fighter or a rogue could only do a certain strike once per day. In a modern campaign I only see at-wills and encounters as being good options. And I think it will have aspects of cinematic just because of how 4th is structured.
How about handling weapons? I was thinking about how best to handle them without having to structure powers around specific weapons. Maybe keywords that allow you to do special effects with the weapon type. Maybe have automatic weapons have the ability to do some additional damage if you expend more ammo? And how about damage ranges?
The non-combat classes are slowly coming together. I see them as more impairing enemies or boosting allies in combat than anything else. They will have lower damage output, but still serve a valuable function. I agree about the Essentials style Martial characters too. I like that they eliminated Daily powers for them, because it never made much sense to me that a fighter or a rogue could only do a certain strike once per day. In a modern campaign I only see at-wills and encounters as being good options. And I think it will have aspects of cinematic just because of how 4th is structured.
How about handling weapons? I was thinking about how best to handle them without having to structure powers around specific weapons. Maybe keywords that allow you to do special effects with the weapon type. Maybe have automatic weapons have the ability to do some additional damage if you expend more ammo? And how about damage ranges?
deadsmurf
First Post
For knowledges, i would think a proficiency-like system would work very well - I think there could be a number of subtypes of these knowledges would work very well.
There would be basic knowledge-Skills (ie Science, Theology, History) which cover basic, all encompassing realms of knowing things, but a specialization gives you a +5 bonus to a skill check that would be covered by that knowledge. Also, in basic (medium difficulty skill check and under) tasks a specialized character automatically succeeds.
The knowledge specialization could be more or less freely decided upon by the player, with GM approval. Some might want to specialize in American History, Conspiracy Theory, Particle Physics, Biology, Computer Programing.
With that system you could also apply a similar system to other skills, like vehicle operation, specialization in Driving, Flying, Boating and Helicoptering (space flight, etc) - Interaction specializations could include bluff, Intimidate etc
Each character could automatically have a specialization, and some careers (and maybe intelligent hero) could gain bonus ones.
The Skill list I would think of off-hand...
Athletics
Acrobatics
Stealth
Science
Technology
History
Vehicle Operation
Interaction
Insight
Endurance
Perception
Other Possible skills, though for some genres it would be more useful as specializations:
Theology
Linguistics (Similar to Pathfinder's system maybe?)
Streetwise
Breaking interaction into Bluff/diplomacy/intimidate again
There would be basic knowledge-Skills (ie Science, Theology, History) which cover basic, all encompassing realms of knowing things, but a specialization gives you a +5 bonus to a skill check that would be covered by that knowledge. Also, in basic (medium difficulty skill check and under) tasks a specialized character automatically succeeds.
The knowledge specialization could be more or less freely decided upon by the player, with GM approval. Some might want to specialize in American History, Conspiracy Theory, Particle Physics, Biology, Computer Programing.
With that system you could also apply a similar system to other skills, like vehicle operation, specialization in Driving, Flying, Boating and Helicoptering (space flight, etc) - Interaction specializations could include bluff, Intimidate etc
Each character could automatically have a specialization, and some careers (and maybe intelligent hero) could gain bonus ones.
The Skill list I would think of off-hand...
Athletics
Acrobatics
Stealth
Science
Technology
History
Vehicle Operation
Interaction
Insight
Endurance
Perception
Other Possible skills, though for some genres it would be more useful as specializations:
Theology
Linguistics (Similar to Pathfinder's system maybe?)
Streetwise
Breaking interaction into Bluff/diplomacy/intimidate again
