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D&D 4E 4E Essentials Modern
- Thread starter dirklancer
- Start date
dirklancer
Explorer
Sorry, meant to get back to you...
4E is more restrictive than 3E was, so a pure conversion to 4E will unfortunately have that problem. 4E is designed to keep you in your role through your entire career. I am sure there would be a way to tweak 4E to add a bit more fluidity than it currently has, but I would worry about it also making things more clunky. I was thinking something along the lines of better multiclass feats (like one feat to allow you to choose a power from two different careers/classes when you level without spending a feat every time) or even allowing you to use the paragon path from a different career. But even then there will be problems. I think its just one of the flaws of 4E in terms of flexibility. I would love to hear some thoughts on how to fix this, or whether it should even be fixed. Your traditional action movie hero doesn't stop being the badass martial artist or hero cop to suddenly become a scientist. He usually stays what he started out as no matter how many sequels you have.
What sort of at-wills? I'd like to see Inspiration as an at-will, for instance.
I was thinking more of stances for the Strong and Tough and the movement powers that they used for Rogues for the Fast. For the other three, I wasn't sure. I could see them having more traditional at-wills, but with more of a non-combat focus for some of them. Maybe Charismatic being more akin to Leaders or causing status effects instead of straight damage. Thoughts?
Seems like careers are more like advanced classes than occupations then.
I was seeing them more as a supplemental class, maybe actually defining the character's role. I think Dark Sun added something similar, but I honestly haven't looked into it yet.
Okay so far. Especially the Academic idea. I think skills-based classes that actually do something when the GM is unfamiliar with the real-life skill in question would be awesome.
I agree. I would love to see some classes that are not combat oriented, but can do other things in combat instead of just dealing damage and would be very useful outside of combat. I see the charismatic character being a unique form of controller that was more about status effects and maybe some psychic damage from powers like Vicious Mockery.
Now I don't know how much I like this idea. Imaging picking an ability score for the Martial Artist. Do you go Strength or Dex? No matter what, you tick off half the people who want to play the class. At least d20 Modern had Weapon Finesse. Same with the Soldier... the way it was written, while it was generally used with ranged weapons (the setting, plus how ranged weapons didn't get benefits the way melee weapons did) it could be used for melee weapons or even martial arts. And if someone wanted to be special forces, that split between Strength (rifle-butting) and Dex (shooting) and either (knife-artist... which do you use?) would still come up.
Someone is going to be ticked off no matter what you do. Scroll through nearly every forum topic and you will find at least one.
I think the best solution would be to just use feats like Melee Training that let you use another stat for your attacks and not worry about the logic of it. It doesn't really make sense that the cleric uses Wisdom to attack with a divinely powered mace, but that's how the system works. I've seen some systems like e20 that actually have ranged attacks using Strength or Constitution instead of Dexterity. It you can get around the weirdness of that idea, it could be made to work.
Multi-classing works differently between Modern and DnD 4e, so this would depend on how exactly you handle multi-classing. For instance, to use the Martial Artist and Soldier examples above, if you wanted to play a Martial Artist (or Swashbuckler for that matter), a combination of Strong and Fast gave you an optimal and flavorful combination. (Especially since you could use Increased Speed with Flying Kick!) Toss in a bit of Charismatic if you like for a swashbuckler. For the soldier, what if someone wants to be a military officer? There's going to be a lot of stat splitting going on, and abilities based on Strength, Dex, Int and Cha!
I actually liked how d20 Modern encouraged you to do a lot of multiclassing, but 4E kind of stripped that away. Yes there are feats for it, but that is fix that just never worked for me. I think the hybrid classes were a better step, but it still doesn't have the flow of the old system. I can think of a few ways to handle multiclassing using the careers, but no matter what it will be a deviation from standard 4E.
I guess I'm saying, your ideas look a bit more restrictive than the way Modern handled things. Modern handled some things like martial artists and military officers better than 3.x precisely because it was so flexible. (Of course, the flexibility allowed you to make a completely gimped character.)
4E is more restrictive than 3E was, so a pure conversion to 4E will unfortunately have that problem. 4E is designed to keep you in your role through your entire career. I am sure there would be a way to tweak 4E to add a bit more fluidity than it currently has, but I would worry about it also making things more clunky. I was thinking something along the lines of better multiclass feats (like one feat to allow you to choose a power from two different careers/classes when you level without spending a feat every time) or even allowing you to use the paragon path from a different career. But even then there will be problems. I think its just one of the flaws of 4E in terms of flexibility. I would love to hear some thoughts on how to fix this, or whether it should even be fixed. Your traditional action movie hero doesn't stop being the badass martial artist or hero cop to suddenly become a scientist. He usually stays what he started out as no matter how many sequels you have.
dirklancer
Explorer
That was one of the systems that made me want to do something different. Interesting idea, but it had some mechanics issues in the execution. From what I've seen about their next system it seems to have improved, but I wanted to go back to some of the things that made the original d20 Modern interesting.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Yeah, I don't really get the whole 'attribute classes' thing. If you have a high Strength, that should give you the advantages doing Strength-related things that you want. In effect I'm not really convinced that the existing 4e mechanical approach in general isn't perfectly fine. If you are say a Soldier class then you might decide to use STR as a prime req and focus on powers that key off of that stat. If you want to be a gunnery expert that uses DEX, then you pick that class or subclass.
Given experience with 4e it seems like single primary/dual secondary classes work best. A Martial Artist might be a DEX primary class, but with heavy use of different secondary stats, STR, maybe CON, whatever to allow different styles.
Classes like Scientist or Investigator should work pretty well. They have a primary stat and one possible secondary per build.
As far as flexibility goes, we have Skill Powers, Multiclassing, and Hybrids, plus just feats in general. If you want to be an Investigator that has some training with firearms you can make your DEX you secondary stat, grab the right weapon proficiency, and swap in a power or two that lets you get off a really effective shot or two and then fall back on a decent RBA.
I think one of the main things that makes all of this tough is just the much greater diversity in possible general genre assumptions. Many modern genre for instance are going to have a lot of characters that aren't really at all combat focused. 4e wasn't really designed with that in mind. The power system is nice for supplying all characters with interesting things to do in combat, but it has less applicability in other kinds of situations. For example it doesn't really feel right to have say "investigative powers".
Most of these kinds of games are a lot less focused on concentrated action sequences as well. You can't really expect 4 encounters a day in a game focused on investigating alien encounters for example. For that kind of game you may well not get great use out of basic core 4e mechanics like HS and AP. Seems to me that each specific genre really needs its own semi-unique set of subsystems.
So I might see a 4e Modern as maybe more of a toolbox than anything else. It provides the core mechanics for how combat, skills, and other related things work, some common feats, etc. Beyond that each setting would pick and choose which pieces make sense in a particular genre.
So for example a game of combat focused action might use HS and AP and provide a bunch of detail in combat classes, firearm details, etc. OTOH a game of crime investigation might have more simplified combat related elements, make fights brief but deadly, deemphasize combat resource management, and put more emphasis into investigative skills, eavesdropping gear, feats related to information gathering, etc.
Given experience with 4e it seems like single primary/dual secondary classes work best. A Martial Artist might be a DEX primary class, but with heavy use of different secondary stats, STR, maybe CON, whatever to allow different styles.
Classes like Scientist or Investigator should work pretty well. They have a primary stat and one possible secondary per build.
As far as flexibility goes, we have Skill Powers, Multiclassing, and Hybrids, plus just feats in general. If you want to be an Investigator that has some training with firearms you can make your DEX you secondary stat, grab the right weapon proficiency, and swap in a power or two that lets you get off a really effective shot or two and then fall back on a decent RBA.
I think one of the main things that makes all of this tough is just the much greater diversity in possible general genre assumptions. Many modern genre for instance are going to have a lot of characters that aren't really at all combat focused. 4e wasn't really designed with that in mind. The power system is nice for supplying all characters with interesting things to do in combat, but it has less applicability in other kinds of situations. For example it doesn't really feel right to have say "investigative powers".
Most of these kinds of games are a lot less focused on concentrated action sequences as well. You can't really expect 4 encounters a day in a game focused on investigating alien encounters for example. For that kind of game you may well not get great use out of basic core 4e mechanics like HS and AP. Seems to me that each specific genre really needs its own semi-unique set of subsystems.
So I might see a 4e Modern as maybe more of a toolbox than anything else. It provides the core mechanics for how combat, skills, and other related things work, some common feats, etc. Beyond that each setting would pick and choose which pieces make sense in a particular genre.
So for example a game of combat focused action might use HS and AP and provide a bunch of detail in combat classes, firearm details, etc. OTOH a game of crime investigation might have more simplified combat related elements, make fights brief but deadly, deemphasize combat resource management, and put more emphasis into investigative skills, eavesdropping gear, feats related to information gathering, etc.
Dias Ex Machina
Publisher / Game Designer
Amethyst Evolution, coming out real soon, offers "Essential" variations of our original technology-based classes as well as alternate features and powers for the traditional 4E classes. We'll be releasing a preview of it soon...
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Dias Ex Machina
Publisher / Game Designer
...In fact, let me see if I can dust off a current build of one of Amethyst's new Essential classes....
OFFICER MARSHAL
Key Abilities: Dexterity, Intelligence, and Charisma.
Armor Proficiencies: Light, heavy (except advanced armor)
Weapon Proficiencies: Small arms (one-handed and two-handed), simple melee
Bonus to Defense: +1 Reflex, +2 Will
Hit Points at 1st level: 12 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges per Day: 7 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: From the class skills list below, pick four at 1st level.
Class Skills: Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Vehicle Operation (Dex)
LEVEL 1: CLASS FEATURES
Benefit: You gain the following class features: Encouraging Support and For the Good of the Team.
ENCOURAGING SUPPORT
Benefit: When you use second wind, one ally in an adjacent square can use an immediate reaction to spend a healing surge and gain the benefit from second wind without spending a standard action. The ally is not counted as having used second wind.
FOR THE GOOD OF THE TEAM
Benefit: On your turn, you can sacrifice your standard action to give another ally in line of sight a basic attack or a move action. Similarly, you can sacrifice your move action to give another ally a minor action. You can also sacrifice your action point to another ally on your turn.
Once per encounter, as an immediate interrupt, you can swap your initiative order for any other ally.
LEVEL 1: COMMAND PRESENCE
Benefit: You use words and actions to inspire those around you. These powers are not stances but auras, and once activated remain so until terminated by a minor action. Unlike stances, multiple auras can be in effect at once. Your auras are deactivated if you are stunned or rendered unconscious.
Select two of the following powers at 1st level: By Example, Field Advice, Intimidating Mug, Mask of Authority, Stand as One, Strategic Precision.
BY EXAMPLE Officer Marshal Utility
Your allies are proud to be near you. You set quite the act to follow.
At-Will * Martial
Minor Action Aura 2
Target: All allies
Effect: While this aura is in effect, affected allies gain either a +2 power bonus to Will or a +2 power bonus to Fortitude defense (pick one when activating this power).
Special: If you wish to change the bonus to defense, you must deactivate, then reactivate this power.
FIELD ADVICE Officer Marshal Utility
You offer counsel to help an ally recover from a dire circumstance.
At-Will * Martial
Minor Action Aura 2
Target: All allies
Effect: While this aura is in effect, affected allies gain a +1 power bonus to their saves. This bonus is for any condition except for saves against being unconscious or if making death saves.
INTIMIDATING MUG Officer Marshal Utility
As your enemies close in, they take one look at you and begin to rethink their approach.
At-Will * Fear, Martial
Minor Action Aura 2
Target: All enemies
Effect: While this aura is in effect, all enemies treat this area as difficult terrain.
MASK OF AUTHORITY Officer Marshal Utility
Allies are spurned by your very presence to perform better in the chaos of combat.
At-Will * Martial
Minor Action Aura 2
Target: All allies
Effect: While this aura is in effect, affected allies gain a +2 power bonus to damage rolls made with basic attacks.
Level 11: +3 damage.
Level 21: +4 damage.
STAND AS ONE Officer Marshal Utility
No one falls during your watch.
At-Will * Martial
Minor Action Aura 2
Target: All allies
Effect: While this aura is in effect, affected allies gain regeneration 1.
Level 11: Regeneration 2
Level 21: Regeneration 3
Special: This power can only be active during a combat encounter.
STRATEGIC PRECISION Officer Marshal Utility
You direct your allies to coordinate their fire with yours.
At-Will * Martial
Minor Action Aura 2
Target: All allies
Effect: While this aura is in effect, affected allies gain a +1 power bonus to attack rolls against any targets you attacked on your previous turn. Strategic Position has to still be in effect outside of your turn for your allies to gain the attack bonus.
LEVEL 1: THE BIG PICTURE
Benefit: You can now gain Team Priority and Opponent Priority as encounter powers.
TEAM PRIORITY Officer Marshal Class Power
Support and defend the group, above all other concerns.
Encounter * Martial
Minor Action Close burst 5
Target: Yourself or one ally
Effect: Target gains a basic attack and can shift three squares before or after the action.
Level 17: Select two allies instead of one.
OPPONENT PRIORITY Officer Marshal Class Power
There may be no "I" in team, but there is in "victory".
Encounter * Booster, Martial
Immediate Reaction Close burst 5
Target: One ally.
Trigger: Ally hits an opponent with a basic attack.
Effect: Add +5 damage to the hit and slide the target one square.
Level 17: +7 damage and slide the target two squares.
Level 27: +10 damage and slide the target three squares.
OFFICER MARSHAL
Key Abilities: Dexterity, Intelligence, and Charisma.
Armor Proficiencies: Light, heavy (except advanced armor)
Weapon Proficiencies: Small arms (one-handed and two-handed), simple melee
Bonus to Defense: +1 Reflex, +2 Will
Hit Points at 1st level: 12 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges per Day: 7 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: From the class skills list below, pick four at 1st level.
Class Skills: Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Vehicle Operation (Dex)
LEVEL 1: CLASS FEATURES
Benefit: You gain the following class features: Encouraging Support and For the Good of the Team.
ENCOURAGING SUPPORT
Benefit: When you use second wind, one ally in an adjacent square can use an immediate reaction to spend a healing surge and gain the benefit from second wind without spending a standard action. The ally is not counted as having used second wind.
FOR THE GOOD OF THE TEAM
Benefit: On your turn, you can sacrifice your standard action to give another ally in line of sight a basic attack or a move action. Similarly, you can sacrifice your move action to give another ally a minor action. You can also sacrifice your action point to another ally on your turn.
Once per encounter, as an immediate interrupt, you can swap your initiative order for any other ally.
LEVEL 1: COMMAND PRESENCE
Benefit: You use words and actions to inspire those around you. These powers are not stances but auras, and once activated remain so until terminated by a minor action. Unlike stances, multiple auras can be in effect at once. Your auras are deactivated if you are stunned or rendered unconscious.
Select two of the following powers at 1st level: By Example, Field Advice, Intimidating Mug, Mask of Authority, Stand as One, Strategic Precision.
BY EXAMPLE Officer Marshal Utility
Your allies are proud to be near you. You set quite the act to follow.
At-Will * Martial
Minor Action Aura 2
Target: All allies
Effect: While this aura is in effect, affected allies gain either a +2 power bonus to Will or a +2 power bonus to Fortitude defense (pick one when activating this power).
Special: If you wish to change the bonus to defense, you must deactivate, then reactivate this power.
FIELD ADVICE Officer Marshal Utility
You offer counsel to help an ally recover from a dire circumstance.
At-Will * Martial
Minor Action Aura 2
Target: All allies
Effect: While this aura is in effect, affected allies gain a +1 power bonus to their saves. This bonus is for any condition except for saves against being unconscious or if making death saves.
INTIMIDATING MUG Officer Marshal Utility
As your enemies close in, they take one look at you and begin to rethink their approach.
At-Will * Fear, Martial
Minor Action Aura 2
Target: All enemies
Effect: While this aura is in effect, all enemies treat this area as difficult terrain.
MASK OF AUTHORITY Officer Marshal Utility
Allies are spurned by your very presence to perform better in the chaos of combat.
At-Will * Martial
Minor Action Aura 2
Target: All allies
Effect: While this aura is in effect, affected allies gain a +2 power bonus to damage rolls made with basic attacks.
Level 11: +3 damage.
Level 21: +4 damage.
STAND AS ONE Officer Marshal Utility
No one falls during your watch.
At-Will * Martial
Minor Action Aura 2
Target: All allies
Effect: While this aura is in effect, affected allies gain regeneration 1.
Level 11: Regeneration 2
Level 21: Regeneration 3
Special: This power can only be active during a combat encounter.
STRATEGIC PRECISION Officer Marshal Utility
You direct your allies to coordinate their fire with yours.
At-Will * Martial
Minor Action Aura 2
Target: All allies
Effect: While this aura is in effect, affected allies gain a +1 power bonus to attack rolls against any targets you attacked on your previous turn. Strategic Position has to still be in effect outside of your turn for your allies to gain the attack bonus.
LEVEL 1: THE BIG PICTURE
Benefit: You can now gain Team Priority and Opponent Priority as encounter powers.
TEAM PRIORITY Officer Marshal Class Power
Support and defend the group, above all other concerns.
Encounter * Martial
Minor Action Close burst 5
Target: Yourself or one ally
Effect: Target gains a basic attack and can shift three squares before or after the action.
Level 17: Select two allies instead of one.
OPPONENT PRIORITY Officer Marshal Class Power
There may be no "I" in team, but there is in "victory".
Encounter * Booster, Martial
Immediate Reaction Close burst 5
Target: One ally.
Trigger: Ally hits an opponent with a basic attack.
Effect: Add +5 damage to the hit and slide the target one square.
Level 17: +7 damage and slide the target two squares.
Level 27: +10 damage and slide the target three squares.
dirklancer
Explorer
I'm reading through the lite version of E20 now. It does look interesting. Has anyone tried it out to see how it plays?
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
Keep in mind that Gamma World is using 4E basic concepts but still abandones the concepts of strict rules. And Essentials ends the clear-cut relation between 1 role for each class only.
In a way, D&D 4E is "on training wheels" in that regard. It ensures you can't fall off and create a character that can't serve a role.
In a d20 Modern 4E, you might be able to go beyond this, and instead of using the role as a class attribute, it becomes a descriptor of a power.
Maybe you still pick a primary role, which determines at-will abilities. Or maybe each power comes with variations for different roles, so if a character that selects Defender as focus, gets defender-specific perks with a power.
Something like:
Burst Fire - Automatic Firearms, Control, Weapon
At-Will - area burst 1 in range
Primary ability modifier vs AC
-> Controller: Area Burst 2 in Range
Target: All creatures in burst
-> Defender: All enemies in burst
Hit: 1W damage.
-> Controller: Slide the target 1 square.
-> Defender: The target is marked until the end of your next turn.
-> Leader: All allies gain +1 to attacks against the target.
-> Striker: 1W + primary ability score modifier damage.
dirklancer
Explorer
Interesting idea and I like how you formatted that power, but do you think that would get too complicated? If you were going to use a format like that, maybe it would be better to go for something more akin to Gamma World with a simpler structure while using the role-based powers to add some versatility and uniqueness to the individual character.
My current structure is a hybrid of the Gamma World format and the standard format. 20 levels, you pick one Core option which represents one of the key attributes and one Career option. The Core option determines your key attribute and score in that attribute, hit point progression, skill and defense bonuses, some basic benefits, and has some power options in the vein of GW (Novice, Utility, and Expert). The career also has a key attribute that determines the score (16 if different, +2 to Core attribute if the same), skill choices and number trained, a benefit that can be increased as you advance (i.e. something like Sneak Attack) and more power options.
My thought now is that at levels 6, 11, and 16 you decide if you want to continue to progress in your career or switch to a new career. If you continue, you gain a better benefit and continue to choose from the powers presented. If you switch, you get the new benefit and start picking from the new career's powers. So you can get some versatility at the expense of the focused benefit. Currently I am trying to figure out the progression as you advance and if this will work out like I think it does in my head.
My current structure is a hybrid of the Gamma World format and the standard format. 20 levels, you pick one Core option which represents one of the key attributes and one Career option. The Core option determines your key attribute and score in that attribute, hit point progression, skill and defense bonuses, some basic benefits, and has some power options in the vein of GW (Novice, Utility, and Expert). The career also has a key attribute that determines the score (16 if different, +2 to Core attribute if the same), skill choices and number trained, a benefit that can be increased as you advance (i.e. something like Sneak Attack) and more power options.
My thought now is that at levels 6, 11, and 16 you decide if you want to continue to progress in your career or switch to a new career. If you continue, you gain a better benefit and continue to choose from the powers presented. If you switch, you get the new benefit and start picking from the new career's powers. So you can get some versatility at the expense of the focused benefit. Currently I am trying to figure out the progression as you advance and if this will work out like I think it does in my head.
