D&D 4E 4e fixed the math, so what's with the +6 skill items?

[Stalker0]

4e has done a couple of things, it has scaled the math over levels much more consistently. Second, it has made skills a much stronger aspect of the game, because magic no longer overrides their use as easily.

So...how are their +6 skill items in the game? For example, there's an armor that gives +6 to athletics and stealth.

A +6 bonus is actually an extremely high number when you consider the realm of balanced math. That's a 35% better chance at succeeding on a skill. And in the case of skill challenges, that can actually turn many medium difficulty checks into automatic rolls.

I could understand items that negate the ACP of plate armor for stealth rolls..or perhaps that provides a +1 or +2 bonus to skill, similar to a shield. But a +6 is a very large number, and tends to create fairly large gaps at high levels between those focused on skills and those that aren't....which was one of the major things we are trying to get away from.

 

[keterys]

It does match the progression of bonuses to attack, damage, AC, etc... and it's a heck of a lot better than +10, +20, or +30...

But, it is a little disconcerting.

 

[Vempyre]

Look at the item's level.

 

[keterys]

Look at the item's level.

That's not material for judging its effect on the math of the game. Either they assume you'll have bonuses that big to skills when balancing skill challenges and such... or they don't, and such an item is a _huge_ swing factor.

Ie, if you need an 12 to succeed at a Medium challenge normally, and skill focus gives you 3 more, race 2 more, and item 6 more... you now succeed on a 1. Woo, you removed even the possibility of failure. Bleah.

 

[Votan]

That's not material for judging its effect on the math of the game. Either they assume you'll have bonuses that big to skills when balancing skill challenges and such... or they don't, and such an item is a _huge_ swing factor.

Ie, if you need an 12 to succeed at a Medium challenge normally, and skill focus gives you 3 more, race 2 more, and item 6 more... you now succeed on a 1. Woo, you removed even the possibility of failure. Bleah.

Maybe it is intended to allow characters who are untrained to be able to keep pace with trained ones?

The +6 bonus would be required at those levels especially if the other characters had feats and such giving extra bonuses.

Or maybe it gives a chance at otherwise impossible challenges?

 

[small pumpkin man]

Maybe it is intended to allow characters who are untrained to be able to keep pace with trained ones?

The +6 bonus would be required at those levels especially if the other characters had feats and such giving extra bonuses.

Except those aren't the people who will take the items, the ones with training and feats will.

Or maybe it gives a chance at otherwise impossible challenges?

Which doesn't make any sense, because they aren't avauilable at low levels.

 

[Sashi]

You can't get a +6 bonus until level 25, at which point any level 25 character can automatically pass a DC 12 skill check.

At 25th level an "easy" challenge is DC 24, a character will have a modifier of:

12+2 (untrained) = 12 (45% success)
12+5+2 (trained) = 19 (80% chance)
12+5+3+6(trained, optimized)=26 (100% chance)

A moderate challenge is 28 and hard is 32. An optimized character with an extra +6 from a magic item will just barely have a 100% chance of passing a level appropriate "hard" challenge, and will start having a good chance of passing "impossible" challenges (DC 34+)

Sounds exactly like the near-superheroic competence I want from an epic-tier hero who's specialized in a skill ("That's Johnny the Rogue! He picks locks with a brush of his fingers, and can hide in shadows with a lit torch!")

 

[Surgoshan]

At level 24, when +6 items become available, you're not facing 12 DC challenges...

Oh, and as for Johnny the Rogue; no one can hide with a light source.

 

[Irda Ranger]

So...how are their +6 skill items in the game?

They assume the people who want to be AWESOME!! at something will acquire the items that give them the bonuses they're looking for. In the meantime there are AWESOME!! opponents than can only be beaten by AWESOME!! PCs and there are competent opponents that can be challenged by anyone with Skill Training and nothing else.

 

[KarinsDad]

I could understand items that negate the ACP of plate armor for stealth rolls..or perhaps that provides a +1 or +2 bonus to skill, similar to a shield. But a +6 is a very large number, and tends to create fairly large gaps at high levels between those focused on skills and those that aren't....which was one of the major things we are trying to get away from.

I think the same will apply at high levels where +6 magic items will be required to hit opponents. If the Fighter loses his +6 weapon, he had better have a +4 or +5 backup.