D&D 4E 4e Gestalt - Elite Heroes

[Garthanos]

battle rager = built in regeneration all the time.. perhaps there armor isnt nerfed enough ;-)

 

[Pyrex]

Certainly in 3.5 Gestalt characters were more powerful than standard; but most of that extra power was in the form of the versatility afforded by having two sets of class features. They didn't have any extra attacks and they certainly didn't have twice as many HP as standard characters.

What I'm not quite clear on is why you want your 4E gestalt characters to be so much more powerful than standard characters.

Back to the subject at hand. What you're going to have to watch for are cross-role gestalts with stat synergy:
--> Dwarf Fighter/Warlock
--> Dragonborn Paladin/Warlock
--> Cleric/Ranger

Most of the Striker/Defender combos will be trouble. Controller/Leaders will be extraordinary enablers.

 

[Garthanos]

So in light of this new development I think it would be wise to remove the double temporary hit point rule. I will be removing it from the rules above.

Thank you for pointing this out Alex319!

The temporary hit points gained by vigor are beneficial per attack already... ie they dont need increased because they already are when you multi-attack him...you are trying to make up for insufficient number of heros... it is possible other sources of temp hit points would work alright increased.

 

[Aazenius]

Certainly in 3.5 Gestalt characters were more powerful than standard; but most of that extra power was in the form of the versatility afforded by having two sets of class features. They didn't have any extra attacks and they certainly didn't have twice as many HP as standard characters.

First I will address your concern about the extra attacks and twice as many HP. I have tested these rules using the adventure found in the back of the 4e Dungeons Masters guide and now I have started running Keep on the Shadowfell. I didn't change any of the encounters. I left everything as is. The last 2 fights found in the back of the DM's guide left both characters bloodied - many times. I say many because After using Second Wind they would be back above bloodied only to be knocked back to bloodied.

Now imagine this. Imagine 2 characters with normal hit points but all the class features of 2 classes and powers from both. My first level characters would not survive the last fight against a level 3 solo dragon.

4e is a different game. Characters need the extra hit points. Monsters all have tons more hit points, and you are often fighting MANY monsters at once. Having 2 characters with just regular hit points doesn't cut it when fighting an encounter designed for 4-5 characters. Like I said, I have tested these rules. I know they work.

4e introduces another problem for the 2 man party. Normal characters generally get 1 attack, yes there are exceptions. So, in a 4-5 person group you can expect 4 to 5 attacks against the enemy. In a 2 person group you can expect 2 attacks. I don't see how giving the characters an option to use a MINOR action to make a BASIC attack hurts or breaks anything. In my testing there were many times when my characters had to use their minor action to sustain a power or to use one. Just because the option is there doesn't mean it will always be used. However I do encourage it's use.

What I'm not quite clear on is why you want your 4E gestalt characters to be so much more powerful than standard characters.

Gestalt is designed with 2 players in mind. Gestalt characters need more hit point because otherwise they could not survive the onslaught of monsters in each encounter. Gestalt characters need the option for a Basic Attack as a Minor action (it isn't Free) because there are only 2 of them attacking instead of 4. Gestalt characters need a bonus to their saves because if one of them gets charmed/immobilized then the one other character is really screwed. Gestalt characters need to be able to spend 2 Action points per encounter instead of the normal 1 because again it helps the 2 man group survive in a world designed for 4 to 5 normal characters.

3.5 and 4e are two entirely different games and the rules for Gestalt must be looked upon differently.

 

[Aazenius]

The temporary hit points gained by vigor are beneficial per attack already... ie they dont need increased because they already are when you multi-attack him...you are trying to make up for insufficient number of heros... it is possible other sources of temp hit points would work alright increased.

You also bring up a good point. Initially when I added the "double temp hit points rule" I didn't even consider the battlerager. I think I know of a work-a-round that will allow us to still use that rule without giving the battlerager more power. I will add it to the rules above.

 

[malcolm_n]

Okay, I brought up these rules to our group tonight and we decided to implement them since we were running as a party of 3 until now. Here's the breakdown. I really enjoyed the results.

* 7th level characters *
Elf Paladin who gestalted into warden
Eladrin Rogue who gestalted Bard
Tiefling Warlord who gestalted melee ranger

After some roleplay, it was time for combat. I threw them up against the 8th level angel encounter in the Monster manual. The fight was very even in that by the end, each member of the party had been bloodied at least once. Our Paladin/Warden was reduced to -3 by the bloodied angels, but regained his surge value of 47 hit points as an immediate reaction utility and finished them off with help from the rogue/bard on the following round. He then used Lay on hands for the second time (out of 4) in the encounter on himself since the other two had used their healing powers on either him or themselves.

End result was that each had used 2 or more dailies and their encounter powers with the odd utility here and there. A pretty consistent fight, imho.
________
Ultimately, this clenches it for me. My Party and I enjoy these rules and will be continuing the campaign using them.

 

[Aazenius]

I am glad they worked for you. They really do make the game playable with just 2 or 3 players. As you saw with your results your character's were more versatile but they were not supermen. If you just look at the creation notes at first glance it does give the impression that Gestalt characters are extremely powerful. But in my own test my characters got bloodied quite a few times each fight. It feels balanced and not overpowered. If my players were steamrolling over monsters then I'd probably would not even bothered posting these rules. But from my test I feel they really are balanced well for 2 or 3 players.

Now you and your players have also seen how well they work. I really do appreciate someone else testing them as well and sharing their results. My next test is to make a level 21 character and see if I can break him. Btw I have revised my rules a little they now include Paragon and Epic path rules.

 

[malcolm_n]

Yeah, I had seen that. I am a little bit worried about how stacking paragon paths and Epic destinies would bend the game. Like the heroic tier information, I don't think it's game breaking since you still only have one set of actions; I too am probably going to draw up a 21st-level character or two and see how they feel.

 

[keterys]

It's probably worth note that this is designed to have 'double effect' characters where the Gestalt rules were never designed to work that way. That probably explains the disparity between some people's expectations and the design goal.

Is there any particular reason you chose to have it clearly a secondary class, instead of having the two classes more evenly split/merged?

 

[Aazenius]

It's probably worth note that this is designed to have 'double effect' characters where the Gestalt rules were never designed to work that way. That probably explains the disparity between some people's expectations and the design goal.

I did this on purpose. 4e is a completely different game then 3.5 or the earlier games. 4e has Elites and Solo monsters with tons of hit points. 2 Gestalt characters (made in the old fashion 3.5 way) would not have the hit points to survive. Gestalt rules must be bent and molded to 4e for them to work properly. 4e Gestalt characters need double hit points. However I do see area's that still need tweaked. I am working on it.

Is there any particular reason you chose to have it clearly a secondary class, instead of having the two classes more evenly split/merged?

No. In fact I am changing that when I do my next update.