D&D 4E 4E, Healing, and Suspension of Disbelief

[CleverNickName]

To avoid threadjacking another thread, I've moved my off-topic rant to its own little thread. Chime in if you are so inclined.

I just read this whole thread, and I must say, I haven't laughed this much in a long time. And my intelligence quotient is but a paltry 145.

I personally don't have a problem with dual-wielding bastard swords. In my opinion, nothing could be worse than that ridiculious circus act known as the Spiked Chain.

The ruining of my disbelief was in the way healing works in 4E. Characters spontaneously healing themselves by the power of their own awesomeness? Getting killed by a cure disease spell? I'd sooner believe in the Loch Ness Monster. But that's a different thread.

See, I don't really get this. It's not magical healing. HP =/= "Life". You aren't even "bloodied" until half your HP is gone. Seems to me that until 50%, you are thus "not bloodied" and therefore, not physically damaged.

Second Wind heals you for less than the value to get you to being bloody in the first place, meaning that your "spontaneous healing by the power of awesomeness" is actually a lot closer to adrenaline, willpower, or sheer luck. Using them out of combat is called "resting".

Exactly. That's why I said that the way healing works in 4E has wrecked my suspension of disbelief.

I've always believed, since the days of the Red Box Rules, that hit points were representative of the amount of damage someone (or something) could sustain before being destroyed. HP = Life Points = Health, whatever. 4E changed that, and now, HP are representative of an all-encompassing, physical/psychological condition that may or may not indicate actual damage, depending on the means by which it can be remedied.

IMO, that's not a good thing. It forces me to change the way a critical element of the D&D game works in my head, in a way that I do not care for, for no real reason except to clumsily explain why everyone can now spontaneously heal themselves. Now I might be in the minority here; lots of people like the healing surges and the quasi-physical nature of damage in 4E...I'm just not a fan of it.

I know it is strange to say that "magical healing is more believable," but it's true. It is easier for me to believe in magic, than to believe I could "walk off" being struck by lightning.

 

[Boarstorm]

I wonder how you reconciled OD&D being a human fighter and being able to (potentially) take as much physical trauma as an elder dragon? It's an extreme example, but the question is genuine.

Oh, and in before claims (true or not) that "it's always been that way!"

 

[Mouseferatu]

I've always believed, since the days of the Red Box Rules, that hit points were representative of the amount of damage someone (or something) could sustain before being destroyed. HP = Life Points = Health, whatever. 4E changed that, and now, HP are representative of an all-encompassing, physical/psychological condition that may or may not indicate actual damage, depending on the means by which it can be remedied.

But this has never been the case. Agreed, 4E takes the distinction to a mechanical level heretofore unseen--but it's a matter of degree, not direction. In no edition of D&D have hit points equaled sheer physical health. The fact that you interpreted them as such is not the fault of, nor a flaw in, the current edition.

 

[pdmiller]

Ummm....

I seem to remember earlier versions of the game specifically saying that hit points were NOT merely physical damage... but were a mish-mash of physical toughness, luck, divine favour and morale...

Otherwise, how can you reconcile the fact that an 8 point wound to a 3.5 character (representing more than 50% of his or her hit points) is cured by a CLW, whereas an 8 point wound suffered by a 10th level character can be cured by the same CLW, but represents a tiny fraction of hit points.

A 50% wound for a 10th level character is not going to benefit much from the same CLW that completely heals a 1st level character's 50% wound. Therefore the concept of hp as physical toughness is the flawed one, not the 4e concept.

 

[Xereq]

Ehhh, don't really want to defend hasbro Wizards of the Coast the 4.0 design team here but if you watch a real fight where the two are taking blows to their bodies, and you're sure its all over for the guy you are rooting for, but the crowd is cheering him anyway, and he gets a second wind, and seems to miraculously recover, ignoring much of the damage done to his body...I guess a healing surge is like that.

 

[Zurai]

I've always believed, since the days of the Red Box Rules, that hit points were representative of the amount of damage someone (or something) could sustain before being destroyed. HP = Life Points = Health, whatever.

You believed a lie. This has never, in any edition - including Chainmail - been true. It's a video game trope that has never existed in the PnP game.

4E changed that, and now, HP are representative of an all-encompassing, physical/psychological condition that may or may not indicate actual damage, depending on the means by which it can be remedied.

4E didn't change a thing, fluffwise. Hit Points still represent exactly the same things they represented when Gygax and Arneson created the system.

 

[Chris Stalis]

A 50% wound for a 10th level character is not going to benefit much from the same CLW that completely heals a 1st level character's 50% wound. Therefore the concept of hp as physical toughness is the flawed one, not the 4e concept.

I think pdmiller hit it on the head here. Starting at 1 HP and using only the heal skill for the rest, a 3.5 character can be healed with 2 to 5 days (depending on hit dice) of complete bed rest. This supposes no magical intervention, just the natural healing process of the body and some tourniquets. And if 1 HP is supposed to be very near to physical death, then we're talking about a week's vacation to sleep off some seriously fractured legs, torn ligaments and several missing pints of blood.

HP has to stand for something other bodily harm, I think, or else too much of the facade will fall apart.

 

[silentounce]

I seem to remember earlier versions of the game specifically saying that hit points were NOT merely physical damage... but were a mish-mash of physical toughness, luck, divine favour and morale...

Otherwise, how can you reconcile the fact that an 8 point wound to a 3.5 character (representing more than 50% of his or her hit points) is cured by a CLW, whereas an 8 point wound suffered by a 10th level character can be cured by the same CLW, but represents a tiny fraction of hit points.

A 50% wound for a 10th level character is not going to benefit much from the same CLW that completely heals a 1st level character's 50% wound. Therefore the concept of hp as physical toughness is the flawed one, not the 4e concept.

Well, that's part of the problem right there. Confusing terminology. When you call the only means of replacing lost HP other than rest things like Cure Wounds and Healing Potions people are bound to be led to think that way. I mean they're called HIT points for crying out loud. You have to get "hit" to lose them for the most part. 4e has the same problem with the term "healing surge".

Ehhh, don't really want to defend hasbro Wizards of the Coast the 4.0 design team here but if you watch a real fight where the two are taking blows to their bodies, and you're sure its all over for the guy you are rooting for, but the crowd is cheering him anyway, and he gets a second wind, and seems to miraculously recover, ignoring much of the damage done to his body...I guess a healing surge is like that.

Do these fights of yours include swords, daggers, axes, halberds, arrows, crossbows, fireballs, poison, lighting bolts, and magic missiles? If so, can you please tell me when and where the next one is going down?

What you're talking about is what previous editions called subdual/nonlethal damage. And those editions had rules that allowed characters to recover a heck of a lot quicker than from any other type of damage. How do you reconcile that? Someone hits you with a fist and it doesn't hurt your "morale" as much?

 

[Oompa]

Well.. anyone can heal himself, just like many people can apply first aid..

I rule that until bloodied state you are tired, bruiced and the likes.. when you get bloodied, you get cuts, bleeding nose and stuff..

Using second wind doesnt heal those wounds, they give you more morale, they give you extra strength.. like an boxer giving all he got when he is almost out..

Why cant someone die from cure disease spell? Ever saw someone with cancer having chemo? That stuff makes you sicker then you are, and there is an good possibility with some bad luck you could die from the chemo insteadt of the cancer..

 

[silentounce]

Why cant someone die from cure disease spell? Ever saw someone with cancer having chemo? That stuff makes you sicker then you are, and there is an good possibility with some bad luck you could die from the chemo insteadt of the cancer..

I think the problem that most people here have with that example is that 4e wasn't supposed to have save or die anymore. And the one instance where it does crop back up is in a freaking ritual that is supposed to cure someone.