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D&D 4E 4e Healing - Is This Right?

Jeff Wilder said:
I have a problem with "all but dead" to "perfectly fine" in six hours with absolutely no attempt at explanation.
We haven't seen an explanation yet, but I am sure the will be one in the PHB. All editions that I have seen have a non-metagame explanation for the physical/mystical/moral/endurance etc mix that is HP including the recovery of said HP. However the one given in 4E may not be an explanation to your taste ;)
Jeff Wilder said:
I have a problem with the Six-Hour Miracle.
This thread has had heaps of explanations for this, I take it your problem is that you don't think that WotC will provide any non-metagame explanation at all for the extended rest rule? Or is it your problem that you reckon that the non-metagame explanation provided won't be to your taste?
[OffTopic]Is there a better way to say non-metagame? It is a rubbish word/phrase but I really can't think of a better one at the moment[/OffTopic]
 

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Jeff Wilder said:
I don't think you've bothered to read the thread (not that I blame you, really), but I don't have a problem with the abstraction of HP. I have a problem with "all but dead" to "perfectly fine" in six hours with absolutely no attempt at explanation. I have a problem with the Six-Hour Miracle.
My point is that there IS no such thing as all but dead in D&D. So there is no miracle. If you have no problem with the abstraction of hitpoints then you surely have no problem with 1 hitpoint being "perfectly fine". And you have no problem with someone going from "perfectly fine" to "perfectly fine" in 6 hrs. So there should be no problem going from 1 hit to full in 6 hours.

I know you want long term injuries, but D&D as a GAME works much better without them.
 

Grog said:
And in 1E and 2E, how is it that a character with 1 hit point left out of 100 can spend entire days performing the most strenuous physical tasks with no impairment whatsoever to his ability to perform those tasks?

The only answer that makes any sense is that he's not really injured. Hit points are an abstraction, and they've always been an abstraction. 4E is no different from any previous edition of D&D in that regard.
I disagree. I think having hit points remaining in D&D might allow you to be injured - but due to your superior heroicness, you overcome the injury - and suffer no penalties.

In 4E, If you take some rest, all your hit points return. That doesn't mean that all wounds have magically closed. But whatever is up with them, they don't hinder you anymore.

I think the "Bloodied" conditions implied flavour text is "you're wounded. We don't know yet how bad it is, but there is some blood on your body that's not from the other guys." Maybe a round later, it turns out that it wasn't anything important. maybe 4 rounds later, you have failed your 3rd death save and died due to the blood loss.
 


Jeff Wilder said:
I get your point.

Now if you want it to mean anything to me, let me know which story you read, or movie you saw, in which someone went from "all but dead" to "perfectly fine" in six hours with no world-consistent explanation. If your argument is that people in stories have combats all the time the way HPs work in 4E, and that seems to be your argument, you're going to need to show me the 6HM is some stories or movies. Because I can't think of any.

I don't think you've bothered to read the thread (not that I blame you, really), but I don't have a problem with the abstraction of HP. I have a problem with "all but dead" to "perfectly fine" in six hours with absolutely no attempt at explanation. I have a problem with the Six-Hour Miracle.
Can't give you 6 Hours, and can't exactly give you barely dead. Jack Bauer in 24 was dead for a few seconds and back gunning down terrorists a few minutes later. So he wasn't just nearly dead, he was fully dead. And back and running a few minutes later. Might not help the case of 6h at all, since it seems more an argument for "healing within a 5 minutes extended rest. (Except that I don't think Jack got these 5 minutes...)
 

mach1.9pants said:
I take it your problem is that you don't think that WotC will provide any non-metagame explanation at all for the extended rest rule?
Yes, that's my problem. As more and more time goes by without any indication that WotC even cares about it, my hopes that there is such as explanation dwindle. (BTW, as I've indicated up-thread, I'm pretty easy to satisfy when it comes to suspension of disbelief. For me it's very much "A for Effort." Or at least "C for Some-Synonym-of-Effort-That-Starts-With-C.")
 

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Can't give you 6 Hours, and can't exactly give you barely dead. Jack Bauer in 24 was dead for a few seconds and back gunning down terrorists a few minutes later.
That's actually a really good try. I do think there's a significant difference between "purposefully flatlined" and "beat down mercilessly." (That is how it happened, right? I can't seem to stop watching 24 despite my disgust (on various levels), but I tend to repress my memories of the show almost fully about 20 minutes after a season ends. During the next season I'm constantly like, "Now who is she again?" Contrast that to, say, Buffy the Vampire Slayer (ooh, another good try! but no, super powers), in which I have whole scenes of dialog memorized.)

24 and Buffy really are very good examples of healing surges and the like ... much better than the Die Hard movies everybody seems to turn to, which work perfectly well with a steady decrease of McClane's HP from 80 or so to 1 HP. But even in 24 and Buffy, there's an attempt to show that the effects of injury linger at least somewhat. When Tony Amendola was shot in the neck, for instance, he didn't bounce back to full capacity. (Pretty close, though.) Riley Finn suffered from busted ribs for two whole episodes. (And Xander's missing an eye!)
 

Jeff Wilder said:
A 20th level character in 3.5 can easily have 200 HP. If that character is stabilized at -9 HP, it will take him 11 days to recover fully without the aid of magical healing; six days if he's tended full-time by someone with the requisite Heal skill modifier. It's not exactly realistic, but Ol' Veril is wagging his tail at the effort.

The character can take 11 days to recover, 11 days of letting his opponents plan against him while he can't go adventuring. Or he can take 21 minutes and 315 gp worth of wand charges. 315gp worth of consumables that, by the wealth by level guidelines, must be added to the next treasure horde the character recovers. The treasure horde that the character can go after on Tuesday (and then another on Wednsday, and then Thursday, etc), instead of waiting until the following Friday. Guess which option 95% of adventurers take?

The character doesn't even need magic items handed out like candy, they just need a cleric. First and second level spells aren't even useful to a 20th level character in combat. But they're sure useful to send a character's HP from zero to full in a few minutes.

This has been in the system since there was a class with access to healing magic. In 1st and 2nd ed players bullied other players into playing a cleric, and then yelled at them if they didn't prepare enough curative spells to bring the party back to full. 3rd ed made a conscious decision to reduce this by allowing clerics to spontaneously cast curative spells so they didn't have to burn all their slots on preparing them and could sometimes do something useful. Players are still bullied into playing cleric, and they're still yelled at if they don't keep spell slots open (or keep a few wands available). Even worse, the 3.x cleric is substantially more powerful than the other classes. Now this is partially from some really stupid ideas related to access to divine spells (i.e. clerics have access to them all, all the time) it's also because the cleric as a class has been buffed to be more powerful as an incentive to get people to play the class (nobody wants to be the healer but we've made a big stick by making him a necessary part of the game, that didn't work, so lets just give out game-breaking carrots as incentive).

By giving players full HP on a long rest you make the need to hand out restorative items like candy just to let people play characters they want to play completely moot. You lose some realism, you lose some verisimilitude. But you gain players having the option of not playing a cleric without getting yelled at, and you keep clerics from being overpowered as a condolence to players who are yelled into playing them as healers, and that's much more important. This is why 4E is moving to the healing paradigm it's moving to. Maybe it's my background in quantum physics ("don't ask why, just calculate the damn wavefunction") but to me it doesn't matter if HP is physical wounds or fatigue or happy gnomes that cling to your body and absorb damage or whatever other logical cartwheels you have to go through to justify any of the HP systems to yourself, all I care about is that when they're in the negatives I am very unhappy, and when they're high I'm happy. The fact that I can be happy without forcing someone into the dedicated healer role, and that the dedicated healers that are around don't have to become a CoDzilla is reason enough to support the new system. I hate to sound insulting, but your "feeling sick" at the fact that healing is more gamist and less simulationist is quite possibly the poorest argument in favor of setting players against each other and making a class start from the premise of being broken just so people will play it that I can think of.

And now, just to dig myself deeper into my happy little hole, I'll repeat something that I said before: a character falling out of a window, breaking his leg, and having to spend months recuperating is a plot point. It's not a game mechanic. I don't want Aragorn to have to sit out the battle in Helms Deep because an orc in the previous battle got a lucky crit, I want my PC's fighting in battles I want them to fight in (as well as the battles they want to fight in). If I want Good King Johan to get stabbed by the poisoned blade of an assasin, causing a wound that festers for months and weakens him in both body and mind, plunging the kingdom into chaos until the party partakes in a dangerous quest to recover the Waters of Elixia and heal him then I will put that in as plot, I don't care what the healing rules are, I don't need to know the GP value of the dagger, the save DC of the poison, or how many levels of Fighter & Aristocrat are possessed by Good King Johan, I don't need to define the Waters of Elixia, all I need to do is establish that GKJ is injured, and the next quest is the party adventuring in search of his cure. In fact this is one of those things that has to be plot centric, you're actually violating verisimilitude by not allowing the Paladin to completely destroy the point of the quest by using Remove Poison, and I'm OK with that.
 

Jeff Wilder said:
Yes, that's my problem. As more and more time goes by without any indication that WotC even cares about it, my hopes that there is such as explanation dwindle. (BTW, as I've indicated up-thread, I'm pretty easy to satisfy when it comes to suspension of disbelief. For me it's very much "A for Effort." Or at least "C for Some-Synonym-of-Effort-That-Starts-With-C.")
Fair enough, I suppose there is nothing I can say until the PHB comes out with the official HP fluff.
however the 'Troy' example is good enough for me so even if WotC don't come out with anything (or even a D- effort) I'll be happy :) I hope that the fluff does give veri the dog a bone, for you ;)
 

Jeff Wilder said:
That's actually a really good try. I do think there's a significant difference between "purposefully flatlined" and "beat down mercilessly." (That is how it happened, right? I can't seem to stop watching 24 despite my disgust (on various levels), but I tend to repress my memories of the show almost fully about 20 minutes after a season ends. During the next season I'm constantly like, "Now who is she again?" Contrast that to, say, Buffy the Vampire Slayer (ooh, another good try! but no, super powers), in which I have whole scenes of dialog memorized.)

24 and Buffy really are very good examples of healing surges and the like ... much better than the Die Hard movies everybody seems to turn to, which work perfectly well with a steady decrease of McClane's HP from 80 or so to 1 HP. But even in 24 and Buffy, there's an attempt to show that the effects of injury linger at least somewhat. When Tony Amendola was shot in the neck, for instance, he didn't bounce back to full capacity. (Pretty close, though.) Riley Finn suffered from busted ribs for two whole episodes. (And Xander's missing an eye!)
"Persistant" Damage is really a special effect in TV shows and movies. Most of the time, the heroes fight on and on and on. Whenever someone is seriously hurt, it has a significant impact on the story told. One-Eyed Xander is a significant change. Buffy's death (at least the second one) was very important for the conclusion of one season and affected an entire second season.

I guess that's one of the reasons why D&D 4 avoids these persistent effects to player characters. They have a profund effect on how the games story will continue. And if such an effect doesn't fit what the players and/or the DM wanted from their story, it can hinder them. So, following this logic (which might be true, but not important for every type of player and group), persistent affects should come into play only when the player or the DM wants them too. Which means everything lasting longer than a day is something unique, resulting from a special ability or other mechanic specifically designed or employed for such purposes.

Aside from the story implications, persistent effects like injuries or diseases make "balancing" the game harder. If a Fighter can use his sword arm only at a significant penalty or none at all, he's severely weakened. You can't count on him any longer - how do you balance an encounter now? That might be a reason why the designers could decide to remove most persistent effects, and leave it entirely in the hands of the DM or the group to decide (houserule) such issues...

The question that remains unanswered so far is if there are any persistent effects besides death? We haven't seen rules on diseases, for example. We haven't seen Werewolves or Vampires either...
 

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