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D&D General 4e Healing was the best D&D healing

We know that they didn't miss. We rolled to check that. That's what the attack roll is for, and it only inflicts damage if they actually hit. An attack that misses does not cause damage, or trigger other effects of the attack (like poison), unless you're playing 4E.

If you accept that logic (which I can understand) then it means one of two things:
  • Most PCs and many NPCs are superhumanly tough
  • AD&D characters are all carrying nerf weapons.
My benchmark here is an orc with an axe. Orcs are stronger than normal humans and axes are lethal weapons that can kill a human in a hit. Therefore anyone in relatively soft armour that can take the maximum damage from an orc with an axe is definitively superhumanly tough. A 4e hero can - but 4e runs consistently on Hollywood physics.

An AD&D orc with an axe does 1d8 damage for a maximum of 8 points. Therefore anyone with 9 or more hit points, if you assume that hits are hits and maximum damage is maximum damage, is definitely superhumanly tough. Which is ... about one in five first level fighters that are definitively superhuman.

Oddly enough the game with the best argument for its characters to not be superhuman is the 3.X series. Where axes have a X3 damage on a critical hit and have a +3 strength modifier.
 

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And that's the problem. Older editions, where they are pretending to model something, can be salvaged as such. The 4E rules are beyond hope, because they aren't even pretending to model anything.

This is the reverse of the problem.

4e models something. It just doesn't model the real world. It works for Hollywood Blockbusters, action adventure movies, superhero movies, and anything genre fiction. That you want it to model the real world and it doesn't is a problem of the mismatch between your desires and what it does.

The AD&D rules are beyond hope because in so far as they pretend to model anything it is strictly throwing a coat of paint over some abstract rules. They model nothing and they do not try to model anything. They just pretend to model things without putting any significant work in to actually model them.
 

4e models something. It just doesn't model the real world. It works for Hollywood Blockbusters, action adventure movies, superhero movies, and anything genre fiction. That you want it to model the real world and it doesn't is a problem of the mismatch between your desires and what it does.
It doesn't model the real world, or any believable hypothetical world. It only models narrative contrivance, which is entirely at odds with that.
The AD&D rules are beyond hope because in so far as they pretend to model anything it is strictly throwing a coat of paint over some abstract rules. They model nothing and they do not try to model anything. They just pretend to model things without putting any significant work in to actually model them.
The AD&D healing rules actually provide a useful model, within the subset of circumstances which are likely to occur during gameplay. That you want it to model things it has no reason to model is a problem of the mismatch between your desires and what it does.
 

If you accept that logic (which I can understand) then it means one of two things:
  • Most PCs and many NPCs are superhumanly tough
  • AD&D characters are all carrying nerf weapons.
You've missed the third possibility, which is that armor is much more effective than we'd expect. Given that low-level characters do die when an orc hits them, and that high-level characters in AD&D can be assumed to be wearing magical armor corresponding to their level (or are wizards), that's not a possibility which can be logically discounted. (While a high-level character would still have their HP if they took their armor off, such an occurance is outside the basic assumptions of gameplay, and not worth modeling.)
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
You've missed the third possibility, which is that armor is much more effective than we'd expect. Given that low-level characters do die when an orc hits them, and that high-level characters in AD&D can be assumed to be wearing magical armor corresponding to their level (or are wizards), that's not a possibility which can be logically discounted. (While a high-level character would still have their HP if they took their armor off, such an occurance is outside the basic assumptions of gameplay, and not worth modeling.)
High level characters never take their armor off, nor are they ever attacked while resting? I don't think it's reasonable to assume that the hit point rules are built on the presumption of armor. There are several classes that have no armor proficiency whatsoever.
 

High level characters never take their armor off, nor are they ever attacked while resting? I don't think it's reasonable to assume that the hit point rules are built on the presumption of armor. There are several classes that have no armor proficiency whatsoever.
Classes which lack armor proficiency do not represent normal people, and their inherent supernatural abilities can account for the same discrepancy. As for the assumption of magical armor (and unnamed spells, to the same effect), that explanation is straight from Gygax; and I see no reason to doubt him in this case, since it's actually consistent with the rules of the game.

As to whether or not the assumption is fair, well... the name of the game is Dungeons & Dragons. That says something about the intended mode of play.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Classes which lack armor proficiency do not represent normal people, and their inherent supernatural abilities can account for the same discrepancy. As for the assumption of magical armor (and unnamed spells, to the same effect), that explanation is straight from Gygax; and I see no reason to doubt him in this case, since it's actually consistent with the rules of the game.

As to whether or not the assumption is fair, well... the name of the game is Dungeons & Dragons. That says something about the intended mode of play.
Inherent supernatural abilities that, AFAIK, have never been mentioned in any book in any edition?

Even leaving that aside, it doesn't explain sleeping characters (who'd naturally be bereft of armor).
 

It doesn't model the real world, or any believable hypothetical world. It only models narrative contrivance, which is entirely at odds with that.

The AD&D healing rules actually provide a useful model, within the subset of circumstances which are likely to occur during gameplay. That you want it to model things it has no reason to model is a problem of the mismatch between your desires and what it does.

First, it's good to know you can't manage suspension of disbelief with a Marvel movie. That, however, is your issue and not the issue of the millions of people who show up to watch their films.

Second the AD&D hit point and healing rules do not model any believable hypothetical world that has any sort of narrative consistency. The healing is ridiculous, as is the hit point model. Indeed it's pure video game of the sort that's not even attempting to pretend to be realistic. No one in a remotely realistic world can take a full strength hit from an orc with an axe and recover in any reasonable time scale, and in any sort of realistic (or even decent larger than life) world fatigue is a thing.

An almost untiring robot who can take a full strength hit from an orc with an axe and who has the same offensive skill pretty much whatever they've done previously is a playable character in a beat-em-up, not a reasonable approximation of a human being.

You've missed the third possibility, which is that armor is much more effective than we'd expect. Given that low-level characters do die when an orc hits them,

Not always. A second level thief who rolled slightly above average on hit points or has a Constitution of 15 and had average rolls will still be standing and hitting back just as effectively when the orc hits them and does maximum damage in AD&D. Second level is pretty low level, leather armour is pretty poor armour, a thief is not magic, and this problem is therefore baked in to the system.

The rules for armour are explicit within the game - they change your armour class. It's also possible to rust-monster armour and do other things to degrade it, which somehow does nothing to hit points. If neither changing armour for a padded doublet nor explicitly weakening the armour does anything to hit points, and neither does replacing explicitly mundane armour with magic armour then we can conclude fairly definitively tha tthe suggestion that hit points are a consequence of armour does not match the game rules.

(While a high-level character would still have their HP if they took their armor off, such an occurance is outside the basic assumptions of gameplay, and not worth modeling.)

Your games may be boring enough that you never have scenes at court or weapons and armour checks. In mine it's rare but not unknown, especially when a character specialises in non-magical sneaky stuff. It's also not unknown for assassins to catch the PCs in the bath house because they know that in a believable world people have to take their armour off. And remember that by "high level character" we mean "at least 1 in 5 first level fighters".

Also numerous modules have started off with the PCs in jail or captured by slavers. This is therefore well within the expected range of gameplay.

I agree it would be outside the basic assumptions of gameplay for a beat-em-up video game or a tabletop wargame. But the very fact you have to restrict your game to such a limited gameplay model shows that you are not trying to model any believable hypothetical world, but only to model sufficient narrative contrivance as to provide a figleaf for a game.

Also that you talk about "basic assumptions of gameplay" is telling - in that it is full acknowledgement that AD&D is making no attempt to model a believable hypothetical world so much as it is to be a game that runs under the rules of a game and where the world is mostly a backdrop. There's nothing wrong with that of course as long as you don't pretend it's realistic in any way.

Classes which lack armor proficiency do not represent normal people, and their inherent supernatural abilities can account for the same discrepancy.

Once more for those in the back the thief has armour proficiency but normally wears light armour. They are also pretty short of inherent supernatural abilities.

As to whether or not the assumption is fair, well... the name of the game is Dungeons & Dragons. That says something about the intended mode of play.

It's a fighting game where you beat your way through dungeons by walking forward, mashing A, and taking down opposing health bars while being at full capability until yours drops - in the same way you do in Double Dragon or Streets of Rage? And where things that can't be handled in this manner are outside the basic assumptions of gameplay and therefore do not happen?

If that's the case then the problem isn't that 4e doesn't model the world. It's that because it models a decently believable hypothetical world it forces you to confront head on just how unrealistic AD&D has always been. 4e is merely the messenger. Now it's possibly a decent critique to say it's in the uncanny valley of attempting to be realistic and falling short as compared to AD&D's pure cartoonishness that doesn't even try for realism.
 

First, it's good to know you can't manage suspension of disbelief with a Marvel movie. That, however, is your issue and not the issue of the millions of people who show up to watch their films.
Movies don't attempt to depict any sort of real world. They run on plot, and everyone knows it. There's no reason to drag a tabletop RPG down to their level, unless you're ready to abandon everything that makes it worth playing.

The rules for armour are explicit within the game - they change your armour class.
Tell that to Gygax, because he's on the record as explicitly disagreeing with that assertion.

Also numerous modules have started off with the PCs in jail or captured by slavers. This is therefore well within the expected range of gameplay.
Generally at level 1, in such a state that a direct hit from any real weapon will kill them. You have not provided a counter-example.

Once more for those in the back the thief has armour proficiency but normally wears light armour. They are also pretty short of inherent supernatural abilities.
And once again, even leather armor is significantly better than nothing. If leather armor wasn't capable of turning a lethal blow into a non-lethal one, then people wouldn't wear it.
 

Inherent supernatural abilities that, AFAIK, have never been mentioned in any book in any edition?
Every edition has mentioned that wizards use magic. Every edition with monks as a core class has mentioned that they use ki. There's never been an instance in a core book where they fail to mention that an unarmored class has inherent supernatural abilities.
 

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