D&D 4E 4e House Rules for Closer to pre-4e feel

[jodyjohnson]

Design Goals
1. Still use DDI and Character Builder as much as possible.
2. Less swingy than 1e
3. Using 4e tech
4. Flatter math

A. Re-tool the Creature math (based on the Sly Flourish DM cheat-sheet)
1. Skill DCs same (the High DCs actually become more difficult over time)
2. Average Damage = 5+Level with normal +/- 25% and +50% categories.
3. Minion damage = half level average
4. Average AC = 16+1/2 level
5. Average Defense = 13+1/2 level
6. Low Hit Points = 6+4/level
7. Medium Hit Points = 7+5/level
8. High Hit Points = 9+6/level
9. Atk vs. AC = 6+1/2 level
I already adjust most of my creatures for the new math via Monster Builder - just using different math.

Less damage, lower defences, lower attacks, roughly half the hit points so we need some PC changes

B. Absolute stat cap of 19 pre-Epic (with normal race and level bonuses subject to cap)

C. Lower PC hit points: Con + per level hp only (no level 1 bump)

D. No modifier from Masterwork armor - this is the biggest pain in the Character builder

E. No math-fix feats, banned list from DM, possibly reign in uber damage combos from feats and powers.

F. Power-based healing including Second Wind can't cross Bloodied or 0 hp barrier - excess healing becomes Temp Hit Points. Add magic healing ritual or martial/heal skill technique to heal between encounters. Also rest and recovery based on bedrest or Endurance. 20+ on Death save can return a PC to action.

G. 0 hit points is defeated with a status based on attack type, narrative flow, intent, or keywords on ongoing damage in effect at the time.

Manually fill on AC, hit points, and any other variance from CB.

More emphasis on not getting Bloodied and really try to avoid dropping to 0 or below. Divine/Arcane/Primal/Heal skill Rituals for getting patched up during a short rest are cheap but time consuming. General power-based healing is much less magical and more morale-based.


DM determined XP for preferred advancement. Overall more encounters per session.

 

[D'karr]

I see what you're doing with some of this stuff but I don't see how it fits in to something defined as pre-4e feel. Nothing you mentioned gives me that feel.

Do you care to elaborate as to what you are attempting to define as a pre-4e feel?

 

[Kynn]

I see what you're doing with some of this stuff but I don't see how it fits in to something defined as pre-4e feel. Nothing you mentioned gives me that feel.

Do you care to elaborate as to what you are attempting to define as a pre-4e feel?

Yeah, that was my take on it too. I don't see anything here that really seems to be designed to appeal to pre-4e gameplay (by which I assume you just mean 3e?).

Maybe if you clarify a little bit more of what premises you're shooting for, that can inform the selection of house rules to be considered.

 

[mkill]

I agree with D'Karr: "pre-4E" can mean pretty much anything. You should define better what you want to achieve.

Your main change is monster math. While that's a thing a DM can do, it doesn't change the "feel" of the game. Your players won't notice that your customized monster missed on that 14 you just rolled where a "standard" monster would have hit. They din't see the die roll, or any monster stats. It's like making a software more "retro" by switching a few libraries - no user will notice, because the interface is the same.

As for healing... Won't make much difference. You make monsters weaker, so healing will be less necessary. The changes to Second Wind won't come up much, because PCs won't need to Second Wind much. And even if, it only makes a difference because it screws over all builds that rely on temporary hit points, i.e. Infernal Warlocks and Battleragers. Others won't care.

And then you are trying to move the attack / defense scale down from 1/level to 1/2 levels. While I think this is a reasonable goal, it's not exactly "pre-4E". 3E, for example, scaled monsters mostly at 3/4 levels, as per creature types (see D20 SRD), but then higher-level monsters also typically had higher Strength scores, so the scaling was more 1/level. Fighters and other full-BAB classes did scale 1/level, or twice as fast as in 4E. Ability scores didn't increase as fast, but that was irrelevant at higher levels thanks to items like Gauntlets of Ogre Power.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Pre-4e for me means higher damage to HP ratios & shorter combats in rounds.
More effective special effects.
Smaller range of levels and longer effective span of usefulness for creatures.


Damage vs. HP, combat length:
For me, one of the big changes in feel was the 24-30 hp Kobold you had to beat down with multiple blows. A 10-12 hp Kobold is closer to the 1d4 HP Kobolds of old with an adjustment for the much higher average damage output of PCs. Sure I like minions and continue to use them but they are too easy to kill (check how many old school modules after 1980 still had minimum or very low end HP).

There's a part of me that would like to go back to 1e/2e hit points but the math is too brutal. And those original low hit points aren't really compatible with 3e/4e stat bonuses and 4e damage feats, not to mention Encounter and Daily powers. If I could give up all the things I like about 4e I would switch to an OSR game. Plus an elite with 2d4 HP or a solo with 5d4 HP isn't much of a difference.


Effectiveness of special attacks:
I like the narrative and idea of Save or Die but don't care for how player's use them to bypass HP in pre-4e. Late 4e has made them slightly more effective for creatures. I think lower HP and a rider that creatures falling below 0 with an active effect might help the narrative without making them more appealing when players really just want an enemy dead. As a PC it adds a little more tension to clear an effect in case a creature gets a lucky crit.

Limited level range:
If 1e/2e was really playable between 1st and 10th and 3e was most enjoyable from 1st to maybe 14th then spreading the math gains of previous editions from 1 to 20th makes some sense.


My main concern would be that by 11+ PCs have so many ways to boost damage that the lower monster HP really makes things too easy (PC hp is really only 6-11 lower across all levels). Limiting stats helps somewhat but WotC keeps solving the slower combats issue on multiple fronts but primarily by upping damage combos.

 

[Jools]

status based on attack type, narrative flow, intent, or keywords on ongoing damage in effect at the time.

That sounds really good, can you tell me more about it?

 

[Infiniti2000]

These changes have nothing to do with pre-4E. They're simply grittier. Look for a grim n' gritty system instead.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Maybe I should have said "Closer to 5e feel".

The implication I'm seeing is that alot of 5e design is aiming to bring back a pre-4e feel otherwise known as the core of DnD. Which is kind of quick and lethal combat.

I don't believe I'm aiming for 'gritty' as such. Just looking for slightly more narrative control (by players and DM) and a touch more simulation. And of course letting my players know that's what the goal is.

 

[jodyjohnson]

That sounds really good, can you tell me more about it?

It's about narrative fiat/license for the players and DM.


We're playing through P2 Demon Queen's Enclave now. Narratively I don't really want to take any of the PCs out for days or weeks because it would really interfere with the flow of the adventure so it's not something I put in rules form (when this happens than this effect takes place).

(P2 spoiler alert)

Spoiler

However last night we encountered a vampire, a swordwraith, numerous large spiders, and some banshees. If a PC were reduced to 0 by a Banshee's Death Visage for example I might say that it was a Actual Banshee wail death - at 14th the PCs can recover from that fairly quick. Or a crit resulting in a <0 hp PC from the Swordwraith might be permanent weakness until recovered - a la Lord of the Rings. Or lasting poisoning from a Spider. A death to the vampire might be a vampiric stupor or turning vampiric that would need to be dealt with. On the PC side the vampire died to a radiant attack so a burning sunlight-like effect might be fine. Or the PCs could choose to break a sword arm when defeating a Drow general with a hammer-blow rather than kill it or knock it out.

If creatures are defeated when they hit 0 hp then we allow fiat informed by the attacks used to say what actually happened.

Honestly my PCs don't go down very often and they have the means to recover from almost anything so it doesn't really have much effect on the PCs beyond story aspects.

 

[SensoryThought]

I personally don't want to go back to recurring save or die situations and combats with high risk of pc death.

My games now have moved past the wargaming roots of DnD where pcs were intended to go down often and quickly rerolled. In games featuring story and regular combat (I have one per session or 33% of playtime), reverting to a gritty and deadly approach to encounters would break my game.