D&D 4E 4e -- Is The World Made Of Cheese?

[Sitara]

Sure you can. You just need to dig pretty deep into the multiclassing.
Level 2: Warrior of the Wild
Level 4: Novice Power (swap Encounter power)
Level 8: Acolyte Power (swap Utility power)
Level 10: Adept Power (swap Daily power)
Level 11: Paragon multiclass (swap at will power and gain any 7th level or lower Ranger encounter power)

However, you never will get the at-will use of Hunter's Quarry, or using two One-handed weapons.

Well, actually at leel 11 by fregoing a apragon path you can select an at will from the second class and make it yours in place of your at will.

However thats at 11th level.

 

[Nadaka]

actually, carving our way through doors, walls, floors became standard practice in one campaign.

Why? because our rogue was eaten. Our monk/shifter had improved sunder and an obscene combination of number of attacks + high damage. And my swordsage had the maneuver that allowed me to ignore hardness. That, and we had a couple adamantine weapons in the party.

We ended up captured by an overwhelming force. Everyone else ended up chained to a wall. The monk and my swordsage were tossed in isolation cells (because I could also teleport in a line of sight and he could shapeshift, making the shackles useless).

I tunneled into the monks cell and then we both beat our way through the outer wall and freed our allies. Every time we came to a locked door, we beat it down. Every time we come to a trap we either spring it or tunnel around it (I am looking at you 2 save or die magic traps on a staircase, with a trap near the top that turns the stairs into a slide, all ending in a 40 ft deep spiked pit trap, there is also a trap at the bottom of the stars/slide that releases an indiana jones style boulder).

 

[VannATLC]

This is also one of my disappointments.

I am, however, tempted to head to the next local RPGA, and start bashing walls down once we start.

 

[Mort_Q]

Where?

This whole thread might be unnecessary...

Sorry, I was reading the posts out of order...

... resist all is hardness, is what I was thinking.

I have to agree with the others that letting the DM decide is better.

Speed of plot, and all that stuff. Convince me that you can/should/could be able to do it, and I'll let you.

 

[FoolishFrost]

I think the issue of players beating holes in walls to move through the dungeon misses a basic flaw in the plan, WAY before HP or hardness.

Jake Fighter: Okay, guys! These mauls and pics should make quick work of this wall, especially with the Wizard using Ray of Frost and Scorching Burst to fracture the surface a bit...

Bob the Wizard: You know, guys, I don't really think...

Jake Fighter: Good. Glad to hear it Bob. Now, get to work.

[Several minutes into the pounding and grinding noises of the adventures digging, they've gotten about 4 inches into the wall, and have an audience...]

Hairy the Hobgoblin: Yanno, I don't think you're going to get far this way. That's hardened DarkStone. Kinda tough once it's installed and magically sealed.

Barry the Beholder: Ohhhh, DarkStone? Dang. You guys are going to be at it all week. Any way you guys could keep in down? I need my 40 winks or I just can't keep my eyes open at all...

Sam Skeleton: Yeah, seriously! You guys are making enough racket to wake the dead! I mean, I animated AFTER you guys started working...

Jake Fighter: ...

Rodger Red Dragon: Hey, sorry I'm late. Is this the bunch that was making all the noise? Are we still going to eat them?

Bob the Wizard: [Looking at Jake] I HATE you. You know that?

 

[Lizard]

Sorry, I was reading the posts out of order...

... resist all is hardness, is what I was thinking.

I have to agree with the others that letting the DM decide is better.

Speed of plot, and all that stuff. Convince me that you can/should/could be able to do it, and I'll let you.

Well, we can simplify the rules a LOT then.

Offering to DM DC of Check
Can of soda 25
Pizza 20
Chinese Food 15
"Personal" favors of an illicit nature: 5

(By the same token, if 'speed of plot' is all that matters, why are there rules for object hit points at all, based on size and material construction? You need to break down a statue. You can't do it in combat, and, out of combat, you do it if you have the tools. End. Put in one paragraph to this effect, and replace the page on attacking objects with a Random Prostitute table.)

 

[Lizard]

I think the issue of players beating holes in walls to move through the dungeon misses a basic flaw in the plan, WAY before HP or hardness.

Silence.

Page 312.

FWIW, I am looking at 4e with an eye towards an urban/sword&sorcery type game, so breaking down doors and walls is a lot more common, as is escaping from jail cells, getting into vaults, and so on. This applies to the PCs enemies as well as the PCs; it's always good to know how many rounds it takes for the person they've captured to get away if he's not guarded, and the 4e answer seems to be "Not many, he can pretend he's from Bismoll and just eat his way out of his cell."

 

[Mort_Q]

... if 'speed of plot' is all that matters, why are there rules for object hit points at all, based on size and material construction? You need to break down a statue. You can't do it in combat, and, out of combat, you do it if you have the tools. End. Put in one paragraph to this effect, and replace the page on attacking objects with a Random Prostitute table.)

You don't need to convince me.

 

[kromelizard]

A simple solution is to directly import the 3.5 rules for objects, since the damage output between editions is about the same.

It does seem an unnecessary rules change, for those who want to do it by DM fiat rather than reference the table, you were always free to do that. Hardness worked well as a mechanic to simulate the varying difficulties of breaking objects and having a table for reference meant that there was some guideline for the DM who wanted to use that set of rules, which is always better than being told to make up your own. As has been stated before, it's worthless advice. I don't need, or want, to spend money on the game books to be told I could just do it myself.

That the rules say so now is not an improvement, especially since it's a fiat to modify rules that poorly model, well, just about anything; because as the text stands it might as well say "If the players want to break it, then it's broken. Unless you want to use DM fiat to arbitrarily decide this particular item has resistances, though we have provided no decent guidelines for that." If the game is going to present a set of rules, then they should be better than not having them and not require redesign by the DM to work. These aren't terrible, they're just incomplete. They should have included a table of common object resistances.

 

[eleran]

Silence.

Page 312.

FWIW, I am looking at 4e with an eye towards an urban/sword&sorcery type game, so breaking down doors and walls is a lot more common, as is escaping from jail cells, getting into vaults, and so on. This applies to the PCs enemies as well as the PCs; it's always good to know how many rounds it takes for the person they've captured to get away if he's not guarded, and the 4e answer seems to be "Not many, he can pretend he's from Bismoll and just eat his way out of his cell."

You know the hit points of the walls since you mentioned it in an earlier post. You know how to keep the noise level down. You just dont know what the hardness/resistance of a wall is. Spend a few seconds and assign a number, use the 3.5 hardness as a good basis. Don't overthink the problem....

Dammit, Hong is right again. Why does no one listen to him?

I had this problem licked several posts ago and it took me 30 seconds. I already know what the hardness/resist of walls in my campaign will be. Now I can get on with other more funner stuff.