D&D 4E 4e -- Is The World Made Of Cheese?

[Thasmodious]

Just because you don't enjoy or can't imagine a Dungeons & Dragons game that involves tunneling to achieve a military objective, doesn't mean that other players are unable to enjoy that objective, and it certainly doesn't mean those other players are wrong.

I can't imagine one that does it by ROUNDS.

Player: OK, we need to tunnel about half a mile to come up beyond the fortress walls, let's get started.

DM: Ok, rd 1
Player1: I roll to hit the ground, hit, 8 damage
Player2: I hit for 5
Player3: I missed! RU serious?
Other Players: Haha, noob.
....much time passes....
DM: Round 1,875
Player1: I roll to hit, 10 damage, how deep are we?
DM: About 20'
Player4: Best! Session! Ever!

...and the June 11 Taking The Internet Too Seriously Award goes to...

I mean, not that Thasmodius isn't, too, but...

Ah yes, I do have that problem. Still, I am not sad to lose the award to someone with as much raw talent in this department as Blake clearly has.

My wife says I remind her of an xkcd comic, cookie to those who know which one she refers to.

 

[Stogoe]

My wife says I remind her of an xkcd comic, cookie to those who know which one she refers to.

I don't know the number off the top of my head, but it's the one that goes "I can't go to bed. There's someone WRONG on the internet!"

EDIT: Ah, it's number 386

 

[unobserved]

so we're back to the same old argument?

4e doesn't have every single rule i want / 4e has too many rules.

take your books back. sell them on ebay.
make up your own rules. discuss them with your players.

how is it that you had to take the most ridiculous concept in the world: "the RAW allow me to dig through an iron door with a spoon" to make the statement "i don't like everything about 4e".

and top it all off with the fact that most of the posts in here are hardly constructive, it just makes you wonder if people have anything better to do other than bitch and moan. you want to have an intelligent discussion about the lack of hardness in 4e, here's a good way to start it:

"the 4e designers seem to have left out rules for hardness, anyone have any suggestions on what to do about it".

instead the OP rattled off 500+ words of bitching and moaning for dramatic effect all to get back to the same point "i feel cheated because everything *I WANT* and *I THINK* makes sense to be there isn't included and *I NEED* the world to know that *I'M NOT HAPPY*"

i'm all for voicing opinions, but who are you really sticking up for here? you said it yourself, easy enough to house rule. great. your game is fixed. who's game is broken? not mine. not most of the people in here. i guess the broken game is one where the DM is an idiot or the player are too stupid to question a dumb interpretation of the rule.

so i guess, you're really just sticking up for the idiots. champion of the terminally stupid. that's a lofty achivement i'm sure.

on the topic of hardness, the 4e dmg clearly states "Some unusual materials might be particularly resistant to some or all kinds of damage. In addition, you might rule that some kinds of damage are particularly effective against certain objects and grant the object vulnerability to that damage type."

you don't like it. fine. enjoy not liking it. but trying to dress up your dislike for something as anything other than you not liking it is sad.

"it should have been in there"
"it's not a complete system"
"i shouldn't have to do it myself"
"these rules can be so easily exploited"
"the RAW are wrong"
"i want my money back"
"i don't like house rules"
"i'm incapable of talking to my players and coming to an agreement that makes sense for everyone at the table"
"there are too many rules"
"there aren't enough rules"

for christ sake. get over yourselves. take it, leave it, or discuss how to make it better. but for the love of god stop pretending that this is the most ridiculous game breaking over-sight / intentional DM fiat rule ever.

. i'd almost pay you $75 just to give some of these idiot's their money back so i could read these threads and find interesting unique ideas without having to read reams of pages full of idiotic whining.

 

[Kishin]

how is it that you had to take the most ridiculous concept in the world: "the RAW allow me to dig through an iron door with a spoon" to make the statement "i don't like everything about 4e"

Simulationism. It does that to a person.

Specifically, an overemphasis on simulationism that creates unrealistic expectation of a storytelling/combat RPG to be able or required to model our reality in exacting detail, rather than allowing for Straczynski-esque speed of plot corollaries that are more in line with its design goals.

Basically, its like going to see 300 and then complaining about the historical inaccuracies (and I'm a history major saying this).

 

[silentounce]

so we're back to the same old argument?

4e doesn't have every single rule i want / 4e has too many rules.

take your books back. sell them on ebay.
make up your own rules. discuss them with your players.

how is it that you had to take the most ridiculous concept in the world: "the RAW allow me to dig through an iron door with a spoon" to make the statement "i don't like everything about 4e".

and top it all off with the fact that most of the posts in here are hardly constructive, it just makes you wonder if people have anything better to do other than bitch and moan. you want to have an intelligent discussion about the lack of hardness in 4e, here's a good way to start it:

"the 4e designers seem to have left out rules for hardness, anyone have any suggestions on what to do about it".

instead the OP rattled off 500+ words of bitching and moaning for dramatic effect all to get back to the same point "i feel cheated because everything *I WANT* and *I THINK* makes sense to be there isn't included and *I NEED* the world to know that *I'M NOT HAPPY*"

i'm all for voicing opinions, but who are you really sticking up for here? you said it yourself, easy enough to house rule. great. your game is fixed. who's game is broken? not mine. not most of the people in here. i guess the broken game is one where the DM is an idiot or the player are too stupid to question a dumb interpretation of the rule.

so i guess, you're really just sticking up for the idiots. champion of the terminally stupid. that's a lofty achivement i'm sure.

on the topic of hardness, the 4e dmg clearly states "Some unusual materials might be particularly resistant to some or all kinds of damage. In addition, you might rule that some kinds of damage are particularly effective against certain objects and grant the object vulnerability to that damage type."

you don't like it. fine. enjoy not liking it. but trying to dress up your dislike for something as anything other than you not liking it is sad.

"it should have been in there"
"it's not a complete system"
"i shouldn't have to do it myself"
"these rules can be so easily exploited"
"the RAW are wrong"
"i want my money back"
"i don't like house rules"
"i'm incapable of talking to my players and coming to an agreement that makes sense for everyone at the table"
"there are too many rules"
"there aren't enough rules"

for christ sake. get over yourselves. take it, leave it, or discuss how to make it better. but for the love of god stop pretending that this is the most ridiculous game breaking over-sight / intentional DM fiat rule ever.

. i'd almost pay you $75 just to give some of these idiot's their money back so i could read these threads and find interesting unique ideas without having to read reams of pages full of idiotic whining.

Out of curiosity, how would you classify your own post above?

 

[unobserved]

Out of curiosity, how would you classify your own post above?

honestly. hopefully (but based on precident, woefully misguided) optimistic that it will give someone pause the next time they decide to make a post useful for nothing other than troll bait that they could use the intelligence they obviously have to be a little more constructive instead of bitching and whining.

is my post full of bitching and moaning. it sure it. but i'd like to hope that there is a purpose to it that benefits others aside from pointless ass-hat-ery

sadly internet forums tend to prove again and again that given a platform to express your opinions and thoughts, a good number of people will sieze it like a chance to make fart noises through a megaphone.

 

[Satori]

Out of curiosity, how would you classify your own post above?

I would classify it as Jack Bauer choking Chuck Norris with a garotte made of win while fighting in a pool of pure awesome.

Just my opinion.

 

[unobserved]

Simulationism. It does that to a person.

Specifically, an overemphasis on simulationism that creates unrealistic expectation of a storytelling/combat RPG to be able or required to model our reality in exacting detail, rather than allowing for Straczynski-esque speed of plot corollaries that are more in line with its design goals.

Basically, its like going to see 300 and then complaining about the historical inaccuracies (and I'm a history major saying this).

my best friend is an archaeologist and i've had to listen to him make off-hand comments while watching the first alien vs predator and apocolypto about how this or that didn't make sense because the mayan civilization did this or that. and when he does it i smack him and tell him to stop being retarded and we laugh and he does.

it stops being funny when you realize that someone "supposedly" capable of rational thought keeps trying to beat you with the same ham-fisted arguments that no one else really gives two about because they think it makes them more clever than everyone that didn't notice.

 

[HP Dreadnought]

sadly internet forums tend to prove again and again that given a platform to express your opinions and thoughts, a good number of people will sieze it like a chance to make fart noises through a megaphone.

Unfortunately your post will have almost zero effect on the people doing the things you are complaining about.

Generally, the opinions of 95% of the people on the internet are worthless. . . but I keep coming back and finding the occasional gem. . . or more often actual interesting facts sprinkled into opinionated and pointless rants.

Its like political discussions. . . I never bother with them anymore. There are only three outcomes:

1. The person is stupid and/or ignorant of the situation and yet probably highly opinionated and believing that they actually know what they are talking about when they do not. Having a conversation with them is a waste of time. 90% of people fall into this category.

2. Sometimes the person is educated, but usually unwilling to be persuaded of any opinion other than the one they currently hold, no matter what evidence is presented. Discussion is pointless.

3. The person is educated and happens to agree with you. Not really a whole lot to talk about.

 

[Felon]

Unfortunately your post will have almost zero effect on the people doing the things you are complaining about.

Generally, the opinions of 95% of the people on the internet are worthless. . . but I keep coming back and finding the occasional gem. . . or more often actual interesting facts sprinkled into opinionated and pointless rants.

Its like political discussions. . . I never bother with them anymore. There are only three outcomes:

1. The person is stupid and/or ignorant of the situation and yet probably highly opinionated and believing that they actually know what they are talking about when they do not. Having a conversation with them is a waste of time. 90% of people fall into this category.

2. Sometimes the person is educated, but usually unwilling to be persuaded of any opinion other than the one they currently hold, no matter what evidence is presented. Discussion is pointless.

3. The person is educated and happens to agree with you. Not really a whole lot to talk about.

Of course, you merely forgot to mention the fourth option that the person is educated, disagrees with you, and actually turns out to be right.

Everyone is the hero of their own story. This Unobserved fellow seems to forget that, and instead feels he's the self-actualized supreme arbiter of what's constructive, useful, idiotic, ridiculous, terminally stupid, or representative of "ass-hattery" for everyone on the Internet. Since he's not, then before he can pass any wisdom along to others, he's got a few things to learn about posting in internet forums himself...especially ENWorld (he could start with dropping the pottymouth).