D&D 4E 4e -- Is The World Made Of Cheese?

[Kishin]

So?
For many people 3E was "just right" when it comes to simulation. So for them the expectation was just that 4E does not make things worse and they were disappointed and now complain about it. So were their expectations unrealistic?

I find it hilarious that I asked you not to twist and misconstrue the topic and you continue to do so anyway. I'm gonna heed PS's words and end this now, and leave unobserved's quote as my final offered explanation:

Yes. 4e set out from the get go to make drastic changes.

 

[Derren]

And surprise, those "just right" 3e books still work! Simulationists of the world rejoice.

The problem is that the 3e books also still contain all the other shortcomings of 3e like bad balance.
So instead of getting a improved version all those people who like simulations are left behind.

 

[unobserved]

The problem is that the 3e books also still contain all the other shortcomings of 3e like bad balance.
So instead of getting a improved version all those people who like simulations are left behind.

Sorry. I really am. As in I am very sorry that this version of D&D is not for you or for any of the other simulationists out there. I like it when people like the things that I like, but sometimes it just doesn't happen that way.

But constant complaints about the fact that it isn't right for you doesn't really solve the problem. I guess maybe it makes the people that do it feel better, but there gets to be a point where enough is enough.

If you want to like it and think you can fix it, then give it a shot. If it doesn't work out I guess you've gotta try something else or stick with what works.

 

[Stogoe]

sadly internet forums tend to prove again and again that given a platform to express your opinions and thoughts, a good number of people will sieze it like a chance to make fart noises through a megaphone.

Hahaha! I think I like that more than John Gabriel's Greater Internet Jerkwad Theory.

EDIT:

Trying to turn around and ruin it for other people really seems to be like a waste of time on all sides involved.

I honestly don't understand how people disagree with this statement. And yet we have the internet, replete with Something Awful and Fark and the like, dedicated to the tearing down and mocking of trivial entertainment.

 

[Felon]

This thread seems to be deteriorating towards the point of closure.

It seems as though the arguments are mostly done, and views are polarised.

I'm afraid so.

 

[gonesailing]

Sadly it seems the Mod is correct..Pity I was half enjoying this thread until someone brought a Flamethrower to it.

Thanks and in the future if a thread irritates you on principle, please ignore it

 

[Hairfoot]

I arrived late, so I'll add this (although it's probably been canvassed fairly thoroughly).

4e seems to have alot more of "make up what you want to do without rules", than players of 3.5e and previous are used to, and also, more than many like.

Actually, I disliked the excessive a-rule-for-everything-ness of 3.5, and would have preferred a more flexible, DM-oriented system. My gripe with 4E is that there are extensive, finely detailed rules - but only for combat. Much of everything else that happens in adventure is left to be made up on the spot, reinforcing the impression that 4E is simply a tabletop combat system, and not a true RPG.

 

[AZRogue]

I arrived late, so I'll add this (although it's probably been canvassed fairly thoroughly).


Actually, I disliked the excessive a-rule-for-everything-ness of 3.5, and would have preferred a more flexible, DM-oriented system. My gripe with 4E is that there are extensive, finely detailed rules - but only for combat. Much of everything else that happens in adventure is left to be made up on the spot, reinforcing the impression that 4E is simply a tabletop combat system, and not a true RPG.

I don't think that's very accurate. 4E doesn't focus on combat any more than any other edition of DnD. What rules does 3E have for roleplaying that 4E doesn't? 4E includes and refines the old Skill Challenge system optional rule; that's something RAW that helps solve numerous non-combat situations.

I think, maybe, you're referring to the fact that 4E doesn't try to include a rule for everything. It's not as complex as 3E, by design. I think that it's the lack of complexity that some people are missing. Most everyone wanted the system simplified but not everyone agrees with what was, before, needless complexity and what is an important part of the game. The designers of 4E have given us a simplified system that they feel covers most of what people are looking for.

One important thing is, now that we have a simplified core system, the extra complexity that some people desire (Hardness, for instance, which I've never used before in any game--just like I've never used encumbrance in over 20 years of DMing) can be easily added back in. Watch for Third Party Publishers to take care of part of that and WotC to do some "adding" as well. I expect books like the Wilderness Survival Guide to be forthcoming that will contain optional rules for wilderness campaigns and survival that can be added to the RAW.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The problem is that the 3e books also still contain all the other shortcomings of 3e like bad balance.
So instead of getting a improved version all those people who like simulations are left behind.

And did it every occur to you that, maybe, balance is something that is not necessarily "simulationist"?

Balance is a concept required for a game, not for a simulation.

For example, if you try to simulate planetary movements, you will notice that only a small subset of parameters for a planet can give him a stable orbit. This subset could be translated in a role-playing game as "viable builds". You can rejuggle your stable orbit parameters to allow only the viable builds, but this means you're limiting choice.

(Limiting choice is, in a way, what 4E does. No Fighter2/Cleric2/Rogue2/Wizard4/Bard4 allowed.)

 

[Sacrificial Lamb]

So stop thinking too hard about fantasy.

We will if you will, Mister 18,000 posts on a fantasy rpg message board.