D&D 4E 4e Legends & Lore: Stats for Gods or ?
- Thread starter JoeGKushner
- Start date
A'koss said:
Don't get me wrong when I use a diety it is usually just a appearance nothing more. Most of the time they do not even know they have deen talking to a god or goddess until way later in a campaign. But I do have the option if my players want to try it. I just personally never liked the avatars they came out with in 3.0, seemed kinda of weak to me.
Winterthorn
Monster Manager
I'm fine with the Aspects at most. Gods should retain some mystery regarding their power such that DM's have full reign with the material. Gods with stats risk cheesyiness and player hubris I don't want to deal with as a DM.
The Aspect concept, if done right, is actually useful for mid-to-high level games IMHO
The Aspect concept, if done right, is actually useful for mid-to-high level games IMHO
A'koss
Explorer
Yeah, but just in principle, Gods slugging out with a group of mortals just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Demi-gods... maybe, but anything higher than that should simply be out of their league. And using an avatar, which is then defeated by a mortal - makes the god itself look bad as it's a direct representation. Incompetent even. How would the faithful look upon their "god" being defeated in combat and why would a god even open itself to the possibility? Dealing with mortals is what followers are for. Or a 1,000 HD bolt of lightning from the blue...Evilusion said:
And like I said, from a player's POV, defeating one in the end is a hollow victory - the god can just create another. But kill an important follower (and assuming it's easier to keep people dead in 4e), one that has taken decades or more to rise through the ranks and invested with the gods power, potentially deals a more serious blow. They're not so easily replaced and the whole church heirarchy is affected (and can potentially shake the faith as well).
TwinBahamut
First Post
I hope the whole idea of Gods statted as characters goes away, since I don't see the usefulness. Even more, I hope the horrid D&Dism of Aspects/Avatars as being wierd killable manifestations of gods dies a worse death.
I also hope any attempt to systemetize what gods are or how they do what they do, like Divine Rank, the "followers give you power" rule, or divinely morphic planes, all go away as well. They are all just bad.
As is my preference, I think this would work better as a "help homebrewers with advice and examples" book, rather than a "encyclopedia of random Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms gods" book.
I also hope any attempt to systemetize what gods are or how they do what they do, like Divine Rank, the "followers give you power" rule, or divinely morphic planes, all go away as well. They are all just bad.
As is my preference, I think this would work better as a "help homebrewers with advice and examples" book, rather than a "encyclopedia of random Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms gods" book.
Winterthorn
Monster Manager
I liken the Aspects to be a mere splinter of a deity's power and only appearing in special places and conditions at the request of a powerful cleric or maybe summoned by relic.
Aspects shouldn't ever appear without a specific purpose in the game/campaign, and being connected to a cleric's prayer and/or relic's power could be a deity's way of saying, "Well you asked for help - so be it - this time. Just be careful of what you wish for..." A DM could have fun with something like that as a part of an important story development. But it has to handled skillfully. As such aspects could work without undermining the awsome mystery of a deity.
Well, just my thoughts; we'll see in time what'll happen for deities in 4E... I really hope the fluff is thorough and compelling in a L&L for 4E!
Aspects shouldn't ever appear without a specific purpose in the game/campaign, and being connected to a cleric's prayer and/or relic's power could be a deity's way of saying, "Well you asked for help - so be it - this time. Just be careful of what you wish for..." A DM could have fun with something like that as a part of an important story development. But it has to handled skillfully. As such aspects could work without undermining the awsome mystery of a deity.
Well, just my thoughts; we'll see in time what'll happen for deities in 4E... I really hope the fluff is thorough and compelling in a L&L for 4E!
JoeGKushner said:
Peter Adkison wrote it. If he's bought it back, I hadn't heard anything about it and Google seems clueless. Cite?
Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net
JoeGKushner
Adventurer
JustinA said:
It was years ago right after the sale of WoTC to Hasbro. YOu'd probably be better off searching this site for the cite.
Yair
Community Supporter
I'm voting "Other".
Wether gods or avatars have stats (or neither do) is a matter for the individual campaign. I think that in the D&D cosmology having stats for the gods makes most sense. There are outer planes, and the gods are said to rule them - so it makes sense to treat them as characters. And there would be high-level groups that might want to travel to a god's plane and kill him. I have nothing against that - if that's what you want to do for fan, go for it. However, this isn't what normal campaigns need.
Normal campaigns need two things, IMO: advancement options for PCs (and, to a lesser extent, NPCs), and insight into how the religions operate in the world. I think the two topics are too broad to cover well in a single volume, so I prefer two seperate books (at least) - Complete Divine (advancement) and Faiths & Pantheons (religions from the roleplaying, political, and plot aspect). Neither of these books needs stats for gods, although details on their powers to influence and perceive events would be needed (especially for the Faiths & Pantheons book). In principle, a "Faiths & Pantheons" can include "avatars" or deity stats, as means to intervene directly and strongly, but in practice these kinds of interventions are too high-level and space-requiring to merit the inclusion of such statistics.
A book that presents stats for the deities is another matter completely. The stats would only be useful for a high-level campaign where deities are adversaries. As such, it should be advertised (and designed) for what it is - an epic monster manual. Again, there is nothing wrong with that. But I don't think room will suffice to release a book detailing stats (and perhaps locales) for deific encounters (whether of avatars or the true deities) for a significant number of deities that will still have enough room left to adequeately service the other two needs (advancement and roleplaying/plot). It needs to be a seperate monster-manual, not part of the other books, if it is to be done well.
A third kind of product is for groups wanting to play the divinity game. Like the old Immortals boxed set, giving players the ability to become gods. This is again another sort of product and should be designed to facilitate this kind of game rather than serve as a monster manual. Stats for gods should be limited to a few sample deities and/or opponents at most.
I found the 3e Deities & Demigods a very bad book because it tried to do it all, so ended up doing everything badly. It presented some information useful for roleplaying a deity's follower (such as dogma, religious sects, and so on) or a deity/religion (providing the DM with information of what the deity is aware of, for example) - but not much. It provided some PrCs for the character to advance into or so on - but not much. It provided statistis for gods, but these did not serve well as monsters (they even lacked CR). It provided rules to play the divine game (to play deities), but these rules were clearly not balanced or intended for a fun game of characters as deities. It did everything, bad.
Wether gods or avatars have stats (or neither do) is a matter for the individual campaign. I think that in the D&D cosmology having stats for the gods makes most sense. There are outer planes, and the gods are said to rule them - so it makes sense to treat them as characters. And there would be high-level groups that might want to travel to a god's plane and kill him. I have nothing against that - if that's what you want to do for fan, go for it. However, this isn't what normal campaigns need.
Normal campaigns need two things, IMO: advancement options for PCs (and, to a lesser extent, NPCs), and insight into how the religions operate in the world. I think the two topics are too broad to cover well in a single volume, so I prefer two seperate books (at least) - Complete Divine (advancement) and Faiths & Pantheons (religions from the roleplaying, political, and plot aspect). Neither of these books needs stats for gods, although details on their powers to influence and perceive events would be needed (especially for the Faiths & Pantheons book). In principle, a "Faiths & Pantheons" can include "avatars" or deity stats, as means to intervene directly and strongly, but in practice these kinds of interventions are too high-level and space-requiring to merit the inclusion of such statistics.
A book that presents stats for the deities is another matter completely. The stats would only be useful for a high-level campaign where deities are adversaries. As such, it should be advertised (and designed) for what it is - an epic monster manual. Again, there is nothing wrong with that. But I don't think room will suffice to release a book detailing stats (and perhaps locales) for deific encounters (whether of avatars or the true deities) for a significant number of deities that will still have enough room left to adequeately service the other two needs (advancement and roleplaying/plot). It needs to be a seperate monster-manual, not part of the other books, if it is to be done well.
A third kind of product is for groups wanting to play the divinity game. Like the old Immortals boxed set, giving players the ability to become gods. This is again another sort of product and should be designed to facilitate this kind of game rather than serve as a monster manual. Stats for gods should be limited to a few sample deities and/or opponents at most.
I found the 3e Deities & Demigods a very bad book because it tried to do it all, so ended up doing everything badly. It presented some information useful for roleplaying a deity's follower (such as dogma, religious sects, and so on) or a deity/religion (providing the DM with information of what the deity is aware of, for example) - but not much. It provided some PrCs for the character to advance into or so on - but not much. It provided statistis for gods, but these did not serve well as monsters (they even lacked CR). It provided rules to play the divine game (to play deities), but these rules were clearly not balanced or intended for a fun game of characters as deities. It did everything, bad.
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