4e Level 30 Magic Items. Who makes these things?

[Ycore Rixle]

"As a realistic simulation of the realm of make-believe, or even as a reflection of medieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure."

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Tell me about it! D&D has never had a working self-consistent world. Eberron was the first serious attempt by the brand owners to make a world that operated, at least to some extent, according to the D&D rules. I share your respect for Gygax - I think the 1e DMG is an unrecognized literary classic - but there is always room for improvement in any art form. I think one way that D&D could improve is by having a world that makes sense according to its rules. As Andor said, one wonders why the non-sensical economy is a sacred cow that the designers decided to keep. I suppose the answer is that it's not an easy cow to slay (maybe a +6 Holy Avenger would help).

Tom is right about the F-22 comparison. Going from +5 to +6 on a Holy Avenger is nowhere near the benefit of going from air equality to air superiority. (I've seen reports that F-22's can score something like 100-to-1 or better kill ratios. Makes you wonder if Air Force colonels are allowed to say ZOMG in official reports.)

I understand the point about "no one makes these items; they're leftover artifacts of an earlier age, or they appear by DM fiat, or whatever." That makes sense, and it's all good. I could totally see a world where such powerful items are not fashionable with current knowledge/skill/conditions. But such items could still be sold. They would have a market price, but not a manufacture cost. Unfortunately in the RAW anything with a market price also has a manufacture cost via the Enchant Item ritual. Which means, assuming that Ted DiBiase was right and everything has a price, that un-manufacturable items do not exist (barring Rule Zero, of course). Or, I suppose, it means that only the PCs can manufacture such items. But in that case the PCs are playing by rules different from the rest of the world, and that doesn't sit well with me because I find it much more impressive to be heroic without being the favored son of the gods or physics.

It comes down to, as Shemeska said, the fact that 4e is all about the primacy of the game over the consistency of the world. Earlier versions of D&D had messed-up economies too. And that's ok; game design decisions get made one way or the other all the time. I disagree with this decision, and I think it's important to point out the economy and world-simulation as possible areas of improvement for future games, but I still enjoy playing D&D in all its versions.

 

[korjik]

If you figure it out, the rules state that a 25th level character should have gotten about 5 million in cash from adventuring. That is just the cash only, not including sold magic.

By 30th level, you are around 26.5 million. In cash.

So, even if you are pretty wastrel with your money, by 27th level, you should get enough cash that level to pay for a Lvl 30 item outright.

note: it just occured to me that I dont remember if the 26.5 million figure is for an individual or the group. You may end up with about 5 mil.

 

[SSquirrel]

F-22 cost = US$137.5 million

Now imagine how many level 1 soldiers could have been hired and armed with m16+1, 2 sets of medical kits, gear and short change to spend on booze and whores.

Of course in D&D I just say those are gifts from the gods or artifacts fo relics from earlier times when the gold piece was worth so much more.

If that Paladin spent all that money getting 1000 soldiers booze and whores they would vote him God-Emperor and kill anyone he asked

If you figure the game means you to earn the equivalent of 1 magic item per level, you would make 13,280,400 progressing from L1 to 30. This is just from adding up L1-L30 on the magic item chart on pg 223 of the PHB

 

[FourthBear]

If you figure it out, the rules state that a 25th level character should have gotten about 5 million in cash from adventuring. That is just the cash only, not including sold magic.

As you guessed later in the post, that's per five person party, not individual. From my calculations, a 30th level PC that went through the standard 1-30 adventures should have obtained a fair share of 5.3 million gold pieces in monetary treasure. That PC would also have obtained 24 magic items, 11 of which would be 20+ in level.

When it comes to how that 5.3 million would be spent, it's probably worth remembering that it's unlikely that the PC would have been patient enough to put it all aside until 30th level. If they put all of that treasure to use to create magic items (rather than buying strongholds, bribing officials, wild parties or other) and they did so as quickly as they possibly could, I figure each PC would end up with 12 created magic items on top of the 24 found magic items. These items would be distributed somewhat evenly between levels 3 and 29.

As you can tell, I was sick in bed yesterday and very bored.

 

[MerricB]

I think you're revising history here.

There was no intention to foster DM creativity in the economic rules of any edition. In 1st edition, after about 4th level, there was pretty much nothing to spend your money on

Hirelings and henchmen. Seriously. Early D&D was very much about personal power of PCs, and one of the best ways to improve your power was to hire loyal servants.

Oh, and build a stronghold.

Cheers!

 

[Lizard]

I prefer the 4e approach. I don't want magic items to generally be made, bought and sold as part of an economy. I want them to wondrous rare things which are mostly obtained through heroic quests and discovered in ancient ruins of civilizations with greater knowledge of magic than now remains in the world.

And yet, in 4e, anyone can make one with enough gold and an hour of time. There's not even a skill check required. Spend 175 gold for the scroll and X for the ritual components, and, poof! Magic item! One hour time. No need to be of a specific class, or be high level, or spend XP.

So whence comes this meme that magic items are more "wondrous" and "magical" in 4e? It's not supported by the rules. Far fewer people were capable of making magic items in 3x -- you needed feats, you needed to spend XP, you needed to know -- or know someone who knew -- various spells. 4e? Ritual scroll+ingredients=item. Anyone who can read the scroll can do it, and there's no limit -- presumably, an Int of 3 might be required to follow the scroll's directions, but there's no chance of failure and even that is a "house rule". You need to be Trained in Arcana, but it doesn't matter what your modifier is. You could have a -10 to your Arcana roll, and, given a scroll of Enchant Item and a few million gold, make any item you want in an hour. Mmmmm...smell the wonder and mystery....

(And you can immediately sell it to a convenient traveling merchant...for 1/5th of what it cost you to make it.)

(I now predict a chorus of "Well, sure, BY THE RULES, but you don't HAVE to do it that way!" You could ignore the rules in 3e, too, and make magic items as wondrous and rare as you wanted. So spell out clearly what 4e -- as written -- does for you in this regard. It certainly makes things simpler -- no "Caster level 5 times spell level 6 times 300 gold, except on a Tuesday or if he's a ranger", but that's precisely counter to the point. Simpler==more common and mundane.)

 

[Lizard]

Now for that same money Our Hero can outfit a Legion of 1st lvl Paladins with Dwarven Plate +1, A Flaming Sword +1, A Heavy Warhorse, 2 healing potions and have enough left over to spring for ale and whores for everyone.

Well, using the RAW (since that's what we're talking here) you find a legion of Paladins. Even more than in 3e, PC-classed characters are Special.

So you would outfit a legion of, say, Human Pikemen. We'll call them 4th level minions, since pretty much any monster you meet in a group is going to be a minion.

What happens to that legion when the dragon breathes on them?

THAT'S why you invest in your hero. Because in a D&D world, the common soldiers are useless against the kind of threats you face, and for the kind of threats soldiers are good at, buying them all +1 armor is overkill.

Also, it's not hard to imagine that the components for rituals are somewhat uncommon. Not actually rare, since by the rules any PC anywhere can buy all they need, but it can be assumed, "off screen", that the supply is pretty low. If anyone starts mass producing items, the cost starts to go up, and up, and up.

 

[Psion]

Tom is right about the F-22 comparison. Going from +5 to +6 on a Holy Avenger is nowhere near the benefit of going from air equality to air superiority.

Tom may be technically right, but I think he lost the context of the OP. I'm the one who originally brought up the F-22 analogy. He transformed it from a fair analogy to a trivial one, causing everyone after him to miss the point.

The F-22 is so expensive because it has a ton of software on it that does useful things. Designers found software to be the only viable route to add capability because they had reached the point of diminishing return when it came to adding new hardware. Every new hardware doodad on the plane had a tradeoff. Adding 10% to the airspeed of the plane and not losing other capabilities would be VERY expensive.

In the context of the avenger, that's a perfect analogy. We are not going from a "equality to superiority" situation in gaining a plus on your avenger. You are adding a small benefit for a great cost. That WOULDN'T work in a sensible economy. The only situation in which such an acquisition would make sense is where a simple "pricetag/walmart" economy does not apply. In other words, situations where "magic of a bygone age", etc., apply.

 

[Vocenoctum]

So whence comes this meme that magic items are more "wondrous" and "magical" in 4e? It's not supported by the rules. Far fewer people were capable of making magic items in 3x -- you needed feats, you needed to spend XP, you needed to know -- or know someone who knew -- various spells.

3e allowed you to enhance a magic item, in the core rules. Thus, you could have Uncle Bob's Ashbringer, and from the start of your career to the end of your career you can upgrade it. Later they added Ancestral Relic feat and Weapons of Legacy, but even in the core rules 3e supported the sanctity of magic items, giving you an option.

4e? Ritual scroll+ingredients=item. Anyone who can read the scroll can do it, and there's no limit -- presumably, an Int of 3 might be required to follow the scroll's directions, but there's no chance of failure and even that is a "house rule".

In 4e, you can sell the item for 1/5, or reduce it to Residuum. So, take Uncle Bob's Ashbringer and throw it in the stew pot, with the resulting goo you can save on the cost of a new item.

(And you can immediately sell it to a convenient traveling merchant...for 1/5th of what it cost you to make it.)

The chorus of "no magic walmart!" drowned out the advantages to the system. No more player choice, once more your items exist at the whim of the DM. For 3e, it's hard to say what came first for our groups, the idea of magic items as little more than their GPV, or the fact the DM's just threw random stuff at us since they knew we could turn it into stuff we wanted.

Now, we just hope to get what we want, otherwise we sell at 1/5 and then buy at (suggested) +20% or something.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

This isn't a new phenomenon... in 2e a +1 Longsword cost the same as a fully outfitted, and crewed, Galleon....

Magic items, especially swords, have never made sense to me. But they are a part of DnD and a serious part of the new math in 4e. So, who makes those IMC? Nobody alive. They are all legendary weapons from ages past, endowed with divine power, or manifestations of ancestral destiny.

Now ... that is an interesting question. What is the cost of a trained and equipped soldier? I think it is a whole lot more than the cost of a M16 and kit.

Kindof a thread-jack, but I'm trying to figure how long manned planes last. Drones and unmanned missile platforms seem way more cost effective.

Last I checked, it was about $20,000 to take a civilian and get them through Marine Corps Basic training and Advanced Infantry school. That does not include the cost of sustaining beans, bullets and bandaids post training.

Manned airplanes in the military generally have a 15 to 20 year lifespan. The UH-1 {Huey} and the B-52 are two airframes that have exceeded that.
Unmanned platforms {UAV} have yet to become more cost effective primarily due to the cost of the infrastructure/C2 nodes required to fly one. The lifespan of UAVs have yet to be determined, but the current model, Predator, has been in operation for over 10 years.

further threadjack, according to some old numbers from http://www.geocities.com/three_strikes_legal/prison_costs.html]LA Times, the per prisoner cost hit $31,000 per year....

Ooops, time to let the thread go back to where it was headed