4e Level 30 Magic Items. Who makes these things?

[renau1g]

I'd take a Legion of soldiers led by a dozen low level Paladins over an extra plus to my weapon any day. Even against level 30's, the soldiers will still provide more benefit than an extra + would on a weapon. I agree they wouldn't be able to do much harm to a level appropriate opponent, however the bonuses they give to allies due to flanking, aid another, blocking the enemy, etc, far outweighs a measly +1.

Agreed...also isn't a natural 20 still a hit every time? So if I have 1000 NPC's using longbows they'll hit 5% of the time, which means 50 will hit each round. That will cause at least 50d10 damage each round, excluding any bonuses, etc. so the NPC's will cause an average of 275 damage/round (5.5 average * 50 shots). I'll take that over a +1 to hit & damage

 

[Doug McCrae]

I'd take a Legion of soldiers led by a dozen low level Paladins over an extra plus to my weapon any day.

Too wargame-y.

 

[Mercule]

2) 3e added a level of item customization to the mix from the start, some people see this as removing the "wonder" of magic items. I see it as allowing a player to play his character.

I think I like residuum better than gold as a "currency" for item conversion. I'm not sure I like the other conversion math (1/5 value, WTF?), but residuum seems groovy.

A thought I had reading this thread -- and I know D&D isn't really representative of Medieval Europe -- is that a feudal or Medieval society would have wealth measured more in land than in coin. This is especially true of large amounts of wealth. If it takes large amounts of wealth to make magic weapons, the phrase "My kingdom for a sword," takes on a whole new meaning. If you want a wizard to create a +6 Holy Avenger, be ready to hand him the keys to the kingdom. It would also be an interesting alternate hook for Dark Sun, with item creation literally sucking the life from the land.

If you continue with looking for non-liquid means of payment for magic weapons, you can get some real interesting ideas. How much is a human life worth? Is that why bad guys seem keen on human sacrifice? Maybe souls moving to the afterlife leave a bit of animus at the gate, which their god(s) can use to empower those +6 Avengers. That would also explain why all the powers seem keen on gathering souls.

I'm not saying that's what the designers intended, but I do think that any edition of D&D could benefit from injecting non-liquid cost into the creation of magic items.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I think I like residuum better than gold as a "currency" for item conversion. I'm not sure I like the other conversion math (1/5 value, WTF?), but residuum seems groovy.

A thought I had reading this thread -- and I know D&D isn't really representative of Medieval Europe -- is that a feudal or Medieval society would have wealth measured more in land than in coin.

I think "gold piece value" is fine in the abstract, since you need SOME measure of universal wealth I think, and it's always fun to have a huge pile of coins...


That said, residuum stored in magical gems that empower a magic item is superior thematically for magic item creation. In the same way that I liked the Samurai's "sacrifice items of value to your ancestors and they imbue your weapon" deal.

The thing with either is that it's putting the "gold piece" of such things too literally IMO. Just like "I buy a magic item" wasn't really "I walk into a store and buy the mace +3, it's on sale and I have a coupon!", it was making connections with folks, having it made, donating to the local church and their god fed-ex's it to you next business day...

"Magic Item sales" is an abstraction for brevity of play, just as "hit points" are. It's up to the DM & players to decide how much they want to accentuate and personalize the roleplaying aspect of it.

I understand that in 4e the "item 5 levels lower" is (theoretically) not as big of a difference as 3e, due to the smooshing of the power curve. (I do think it's still noticeable either way.) 1/5 still feels wrong to me.

It's easy enough to change Enchant Item to enable "upgrading" by only paying the difference, and it's easy enough to fiddle with the 1/5 (though, dangerous in that you can't tell how much the system depends on it or is influenced by it) pricepoint. I'm not trying to Rules Lawyer and such, just trying to illustrate my view, and of course, dispute the idea that somehow 3e was the only edition to make magic items less meaningful.

 

[firesnakearies]

(I didn't read the thread, just the original post, so forgive me if this answer is redundant.)

My thought is that given the "points of light" concept and the "world assumptions" in place by default for 4th edition, the vast majority of magic items in the world today, especially the really powerful ones, are left over from the ancient days of vast empires and great civilizations, abundance, and power of the "good" races.

I see them having much greater resources back then, much greater knowledge, much greater wealth, and many more powerful wielders of magic. As such, making the items would have been hugely easier, more common, and cheaper than it is now. Those +6 holy avengers were still relatively powerful and relatively rare, and somewhat expensive, but compared to the economy of the time, they were considerably less of a "big deal" to produce.

Now, we're in this semi-post-apocalyptic, dark age, "points of light" setting, where the decided lack of widespread as well as massively consolidated enchanting resources (both materials AND capable practitioners) would make the creation of new magical items a lot more economically impactful than it was back in the "Golden Age".

That's how I see it.

 

[Intense_Interest]

I never suggested that legion of paladins is going to help the PC in combat. I'm saying that spending 2.5 mill to outfit a legion of paladins, or founding a Paladin training academy for that matter is likely to accomplish more good for the world than giving Thor an extra +1 to hit is.

You doubt the importance of Thor? Lightning Bolts for you then.

Reams of TPKs are decided on the whim of a dice-roll. Multiply that with a larger cost of death than "another sheet of paper or some meta-game resource".

As for spending money on residium or even the simple of idea of residium being used as currency... That 5 to 1 conversion rate is a killer. Would anyone here still be using a credit card if you were charged 5 to 1 for the mere convenience?

If my other choice was "Death By Orcs", sure.

5:1, in the non-linear scale of magic items (a whole plus) isn't the same ballpark as having 5 apples instead of 1 apple. Meanwhile, carrying around 5 times more gold just means 5 times more Dragon that eats you.

 

[Raven Crowking]

In fantasy worlds do you see magic items being produced like an assembly line car factory? They are generally ancient and difficult to make requiring years of study or ancient artifacts of a forotten time.

4E is somewhat returning to those roots where the DM decides the history of a magic items if he deems it important. Yet they still include the ability to craft an item, they just made it far more difficult than it used to be. I for one like that. Magic items should be kept rare and interesting.

I agree 100%. This is one of the really good things about 4e, IMHO.

RC

 

[Lizard]

4E is somewhat returning to those roots where the DM decides the history of a magic items if he deems it important. Yet they still include the ability to craft an item, they just made it far more difficult than it used to be. I for one like that. Magic items should be kept rare and interesting.

People keep SAYING this, and I have to wonder if I got the 4e rules from an alternate dimension. 4e makes PC magic item crafting EASIER than any prior edition, continuing a trend.

1e: You want to craft a magic item? Fine, your character will spend the next year making a scroll, play someone else for a while.

2e: As above, but more so. ("I need the sorrow of a maiden? The FRACK?")

3e: Take this feat, that feat, the other feat, know these spells, and be prepared to take an XP hit, sucker! And spend some gold. Lots of gold. Oh, it will take a few weeks if it's at all powerful.

4e: Got your ritual scroll? Check. Got your "residuum" or bags of Generic Mystic Stuff? (Or a bunch of +1 swords you don't need anymore?) Check. OK, an hour later, you've got what you want. You can beat your magic swords into a carpet of flying.

And please, fertheluvvvavecna, don't say, "Well, sure, but in 4e, the DM can ignore the rules!" You could in every other edition, too. If you're going to say "4e does blah!", it better do blah *by the rules*.

(One of my personal houserules for 4e is going to be that some items/powers/things require more than Generic Mystic Crap. I like the whole ritual concept, but it needs to be kicked up a notch (bam!) with 1e-style Interesting Magical Bits Required.)

 

[Vocenoctum]

4e: Got your ritual scroll? Check. Got your "residuum" or bags of Generic Mystic Stuff? (Or a bunch of +1 swords you don't need anymore?) Check. OK, an hour later, you've got what you want. You can beat your magic swords into a carpet of flying.

You know, it's funny. I'm playing a wizard, so didn't really look at the ritual scroll stuff. So I kept thinking "nyah, I just get it free for leveling". So after reading up on this, I discovered that you don't even need the ritual feat to use the scroll.

So, yeah, now the fighter with no magical training can spend 175g and make his magic item. Way to add mystery and excitement to magic items!

 

[hamishspence]

I think we call him Bruenor Battlehammer

It annoyed me that in 3rd ed the sample vesion of Bruenor in Silver Maraches had no way to make magic items.

At least now, its consistent with the book.