D&D 4E 4e Magic system, speculations?

[Ktulu]

I've long been a hater of the vancian magic system. In fact, that's my one big complaint about 3e. Everything else was take or leave, but the vancian system always bugged me. Since SWSE came out, we've been using a modified Force system for magic, which provides a much more abstract and, for lack of a better term, "magical" system. It feels less "utility" and more "arcane".

Anyway, attempting to get to the point, I have been trying to figure out what the magic system will really look like in 4e. We know there will be 25 levels of spells and that the system will be a mix of will/per encounter/per day/rituals. What I'm curious of is how that will translate.

Going by what we know, it's likely that each class will receive a power & a feat every other level (fitting with d20 modern & Saga's style, along with the design intentions of stuff every level). Since you will likely choose spells during those levels, that provides 15 powers that can be chosen from a pool of X number of powers. I figure the at will eldritch blast will be covered as a starting ability and can be augmented with feats, if need be. The per encounter/per days will most likely be taken up in the power selection, spell level taken based upon class level.

With this theory, how many "spells" would be received upon taking the power? My assumption is that each "power" would be said spell, maybe having a per encounter and per day use. Flamingsladdstrike power would maybe include a burning hands per encounter, and a fireball per day use?

I doubt we'll see a list of powers section that then refers you to a list of spells section (as that would probably take up a LOT more space than the designers would intend).

Thoughts? Am I way off base?

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

I am guessing that powers will not be listed as At Will/Per Encounter/Per Day. Rather, as the caster gains levels, he can elect what spells to assign to those slots during the memorization/prayer process (if indeed there is memorization; it very well could be that powers refresh automatically with a holy symbol or book as a focus to refresh spells).

 

[eleran]

They talked about "siloing" quite a bit in the R&C book and other articles online. I think this means that like the OP said, you'll take a power and that power will give an at will spell and a per encounter spells. Not sure about the per day spells as I am still not straight on whether all per day spells are rituals, or merely that all rituals are per day spells.

A silo might be;

Fire mage
at will Burning Hands per encounter scorching ray etc.

 

[Voss]

I'm hoping there will be no 'refreshing' or memorization at all, barring the the per day spells. Which I would just want to tick up at midnight or dawn or whatever point.

The memorization and resting rules in 3e were either irrelevant, or a way for the DM to make life a pain in the rear for spellcasters. 'Ha ha, you don't get your spells back'. It was a poor way to help justify the class imbalance between spellcasters and noncasters. 4e looks to be eliminating that imbalance, so the mechanic isn't needed.

 

[MaelStorm]

The ability to access the arcane power source might be a feat, which gives you access to the arcana skill and the ability to cast spells and accomplish rituals.

Spell might be treated as a type of maneuver. (treated as a standard action for at will or per encounter spells).

Long spells as rituals, I have no idea how they will be covered.

For clerics it could be the same thing except it will be the divine source, prayers, and rituals.

Or it could be something else entirely...

 

[Nikosandros]

Not sure about the per day spells as I am still not straight on whether all per day spells are rituals, or merely that all rituals are per day spells.

What I understood from R&C, was that rituals are non combat spells. There are also powerful per day powers.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Do we even KNOW that there will ONLY be 25 levels of spells? I was under the impression that the exact quote was "A wizard can cast 25th level spells" or somesuch which does not suggest that it doesn't go higher, and that the level of the spell is equal to the level you learn it at.

All this is my long way of saying: I think there is 30 levels of spells.

I think they work just like any other powers, with per round, encounter, day with the only thing making them "Spells" is fluff, and the fact that they can do things that "martial" likely shouldn't be able to accomplish (IE messing with physics)

Rituals, on the other hand, will be powerfull effects that take preparation and long casting times, that the Wizard can learn during the campaign, independent of (or at least not totally restricted by) level advancement.

Fitz

 

[Larrin]

I think a wizard will look something like this (everything is made up)

Wizard Bob
Human

spells:
At will (3): magic missle, mage strikeush, ice dart
per encounter (2): Firey burst, Grease
per day(1): Sleep

rituals known:
Indentify
knock
summon invisible messenger
tensers floating disk

I think spells will be things you use in an encounter and want ot be able to cast in 6 secounds, the number known will be limited in quantity by level. Mostly these will be combat or social encounter type things.

rituals are not limited, nor prepared. if you know it and have the materials you can do it at any time (or maybe you need a book to read it from or something), unlimited times. but how many times are you going to cast a 10 minute ritual to open a lock when the rogue can do it in 6 seconds. Time and sensibility will be the restrictions on rituals.

example:
"we're being chased by ogre's and you want to take 30 minutes to cast magnificent mansion? You want us to hold them off until you're done?"

 

[Ktulu]

Right, but my question is more on how the wizard will get his spells. Will it be a power selection, i.e. i pick the fiery fart of death power and gain access to burning hands (at will), fireball (per encounter), and flame sheild (per day)... Or will I have a chart similar to 3e's spells known/per day and get spells according to that... Or will I pick a feat called spell training and get 1 spell + intelligence mod in spells (ala Saga edition SW)? That's where I'm questioning the whole thing.


Also, IIRC, it was specifically stated that spell levels were 1-25, not 1-30. I could have interpreted it wrong, though.

 

[Generico]

I imagine it will probably have something to do with the tiers of play. Spells might be organized into "silos" like Heroic spells, Paragon spells, Epic spells. There seems to be an emphasis not so much on more power as you level up, but more options. So that might mean that a 9th level spell isn't necessarily more powerful than a 2nd level spell, but it gives you an option that you don't have at 2nd level. The real power jump might come when you gain access to a new tier.

If your spells are separated into tier categories, and each tier has relatively the same power levels for spells, then you could have a single progression chart for spells readied/known that would cover the 10 levels of each tier. When you get to the end of a tier, you know and can ready a maximum amount of spells from that tier. When you start a new tier, you can still know and ready the maximum amount of spells from the previous tier, but now you start over at the bottom of the chart with a new tier of spells. Just to give you some idea what I'm trying to explain, here's a visual (obviously my numbers would not be accurate).

Level    At will    Encounter    Per day
1           1           5           1
2           1           6           1
3           1           7           2
4           2           8           2
5           2           9           2
6           2           10          3
7           3           10          3
8           3           11          3
9           3           11          3
10          4           12          4

I don't imagine that powers will be dealt out in the same way that SWSE gives out Force powers, because if you're a wizard and all you do is magic, there would never be a reason to use your feats for anything but more spells. Jedi aren't just magic users, so they have incentive to use feats for something else. I don't think that system works with D&D classes. They had the chance to use some other system for dealing out known and readied powers when they used the per-encounter system of powers in Tome of Battle, but it was still based on a chart. I think 4e's system for controlling powers readied/known will remain chart based.


I'm hoping that if they took anything from SWSE Force powers, it's basing the power of your spells on a specific power related skill, rather than on class level. The fact that magic in 3e was based on class level made multi-classing casters a serious pain in the butt. Basing it on a skill, or even just character level, makes multi-classing a much more viable option. This is especially true now that every class has powers.