D&D 4E 4e Magic system, speculations?

[kennew142]

Given that this [Vancian spellcasting] has always been a characteristic of D&D, and probably the single biggest element that differentiated D&D from other systems... WHY did you choose D&D over any of the other fantasy RPGs on the market?

For me, Vancian magic is something that I actively enjoy about D&D and a reason I prefer to play it rather than other systems.

As for me, there is more to a game system than just the magic system. I like D&D. I like a lot of things about D&D. I've had a lot of experience with systems other than D&D, but I've always come back. It certainly wasn't the magic system that kept bringing me back.

Just because I love D&D, doesn't mean that I don't think it could be improved. If that were the case, I would still be enjoying OD&D.

 

[Ahglock]

As for me, there is more to a game system than just the magic system. I like D&D. I like a lot of things about D&D. I've had a lot of experience with systems other than D&D, but I've always come back. It certainly wasn't the magic system that kept bringing me back.

Just because I love D&D, doesn't mean that I don't think it could be improved. If that were the case, I would still be enjoying OD&D.

I still enjoy OD&D, and the rules cyclopedia, and 1e, and 2e, and 3e, and 3.5, but yeah everything can be improved upon. The trick is while you are improving things not to screw other things up. 4E SR is a perfect example of that. I think the core idea they came up with for there resolutions system is an improvement. I think TN5 is too high since it doesn't show a big enough difference in skill in non-twinks. You have to twink in order to be even marginally better than average runnner bob, but that is a nit pick. I think they improved there magic system a bit by unifying it, though it lost some flavor, but Mr. 10 force fireball is a pain in the butt, now everyone is like well I throw grenades so I can keep up with the mage. So yeah everything can be improved just don't mess up the other parts while you improve. Still play SR4e as is, so it doens't suck or anyhting.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

As for me, there is more to a game system than just the magic system. I like D&D. I like a lot of things about D&D. I've had a lot of experience with systems other than D&D, but I've always come back. It certainly wasn't the magic system that kept bringing me back.

I respect your reasoning. To me, Vancian magic is as integral to D&D as gruesome critical hit charts are to Rolemaster. That is, it's not the official defining characteristic of the game (the way that "diceless" is for Amber), but it's something very important and distinctive that differentiates it from other games out there. And just as I couldn't see someone actively choosing Rolemaster who hated the crit charts, I can't see someone actively choosing D&D who hates the D&D magic system. But, your experience is different than mine.

And as to whether D&D can be improved upon... well, it evolves. And evolution isn't about objective improvement, it's about adaptation to changing conditions and competition. 4E may well be better-adapted to your tastes and to the tastes of the gaming market at large than 3.5 is.

 

[The Little Raven]

And just as I couldn't see someone actively choosing Rolemaster who hated the crit charts, I can't see someone actively choosing D&D who hates the D&D magic system.

D&D, I choose you! *tosses Pokeball*

But I have always hated Vancian-style spellcasting, despite having played this game for 20 years.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

I respect your reasoning. To me, Vancian magic is as integral to D&D as gruesome critical hit charts are to Rolemaster. That is, it's not the official defining characteristic of the game (the way that "diceless" is for Amber), but it's something very important and distinctive that differentiates it from other games out there. And just as I couldn't see someone actively choosing Rolemaster who hated the crit charts, I can't see someone actively choosing D&D who hates the D&D magic system. But, your experience is different than mine.

An element does a game not make. A game is more than one thing.

Just like a Ravenloft fan may not like, say, Azalin, or a FR fan the Weave.

Fans can be critical.

 

[kennew142]

I respect your reasoning. To me, Vancian magic is as integral to D&D as gruesome critical hit charts are to Rolemaster. That is, it's not the official defining characteristic of the game (the way that "diceless" is for Amber), but it's something very important and distinctive that differentiates it from other games out there. And just as I couldn't see someone actively choosing Rolemaster who hated the crit charts, I can't see someone actively choosing D&D who hates the D&D magic system. But, your experience is different than mine.

I've tried (mostly to no avail) to house rule it away since the late 70s. I invented the sorcerer through trial and error back in the 80s, but discarded it since I thought is was too powerful compared to the other classes. Darn WotC must have been reading my mind! Must find tin foil hat....

 

[Brother MacLaren]

An element does a game not make. A game is more than one thing.

Just like a Ravenloft fan may not like, say, Azalin, or a FR fan the Weave.

Fans can be critical.

Sure, but I don't imagine there are many Ravenloft fans who don't like undead in their games, or many FR fans who don't like magic in their games. The point is, not all elements are equal; some are very dominant in a game's definition.

I can't think of anything that is both as strongly identified with D&D and as prevalent in the game as Vancian spellcasting. Besides Vancian spellcasting, what does D&D offer that other systems do not? Is there any other element that has, through all the editions of D&D, set D&D apart from its competitors? Well, there's "market share, range of supporting products, and huge player base," which may account for some D&D brand loyalty.

Obviously, most of the posters on this thread have found enough that they liked about D&D to stick with it for decades despite their dislike of a fairly central mechanic (and I think even those who say it isn't defining would still agree it is fairly central).

 

[The Ubbergeek]

I dislike using that excuse to keep things from changing. I agree that the ancient vancian casting system needs at least heavy changes.

The problem is, what do you want? A game uniquely D&D but lacking, or a better game that seems less traditionaly D&D? If D&D can't be improved and a better game might not be D&D anymore... so be it. I'd rather have a new successor then to the game.


Why not. as started by this edition, a game that is played for it's unique fluff, and ALSO the game mechanics, in themselves GOOD?

 

[kennew142]

Sure, but I don't imagine there are many Ravenloft fans who don't like undead in their games, or many FR fans who don't like magic in their games. The point is, not all elements are equal; some are very dominant in a game's definition.

I can't think of anything that is both as strongly identified with D&D and as prevalent in the game as Vancian spellcasting. Besides Vancian spellcasting, what does D&D offer that other systems do not? Is there any other element that has, through all the editions of D&D, set D&D apart from its competitors? Well, there's "market share, range of supporting products, and huge player base," which may account for some D&D brand loyalty.

Obviously, most of the posters on this thread have found enough that they liked about D&D to stick with it for decades despite their dislike of a fairly central mechanic (and I think even those who say it isn't defining would still agree it is fairly central).

What does D&D offer that other game systems do not? IMO fun and ease of play. Others may disagree, but it's why I kept coming back to D&D after all those other games.

I agree that Vancian spell casting has been a central mechanism in the game to date, but that can change without losing the game. When skills and feats were added, they changed the game tremendously (for example), but it remained D&D. It was the same when they got rid of THAC0 and xp based on how much gold you found. The Vancian magic system had already started to be replaced in 3e with spontaneous spell casting (sorcerers, bards, favored souls), spell point systems (psionics) and at will abilities (invocations and eldritch blasts). IMO losing the quasi-Vancian* system will be a great improvement to the game.

*Quasi-Vancian because Dying Earth doesn't use spell components, and Jack Vance used other magic systems in other series.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Amusingly, there was a poster here I think that argued the new system will be actually CLOSER to the magic system Vance used in those books...