D&D 4E 4e Magic system, speculations?

[Brother MacLaren]

When skills and feats were added, they changed the game tremendously (for example), but it remained D&D.

You know, I'm really not sure about that anymore. The change to a focus on "character builds" was enormous. I don't have an explanation that is clearly articulated enough... but I think 3E changed the game much more dramatically that it seemed at the time. Because I hadn't played 2E in years, and because they kept the flavor familiar, and because it seemed they were only adding rather than taking away, I don't think I noticed what a dramatic change it was.

With 4E, the changes are coming while I'm still playing 3.5, the flavor is changing, and they are taking away as much as they are adding. So it seems a much bigger change. But it may be that the real break from D&D came with 3E, not 4E. Hmmm. (This would imply that, in my opinion, Vancian magic is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a game to be D&D.)

In any event, I'm looking forward to going back to BECMI.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

I find it sad, this obsession with the 'it is/it is not D&D' debate.

If it would/is better, funner, etc to you and yet not D&D.... maybe that say something, no?

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Besides Vancian spellcasting, what does D&D offer that other systems do not?... Well, there's "market share, range of supporting products, and huge player base," which may account for some D&D brand loyalty.

Bingo.

All I want is to play a fantasy RPG with some tactical depth. Basically the only RPGs that are widely supported in retail (not only Borders but a lot of FLGSs too) are D&D and White Wolf stuff. I don't want to play an angsty werewolf or vampire, and I don't want to play a weird Exalted demigod-thing, so that leaves D&D. Plus, it's way, way easier to find a D&D group than any other system.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Bingo.

All I want is to play a fantasy RPG with some tactical depth. Basically the only RPGs that are widely supported in retail (not only Borders but a lot of FLGSs too) are D&D and White Wolf stuff. I don't want to play an angsty werewolf or vampire, and I don't want to play a weird Exalted demigod-thing, so that leaves D&D. Plus, it's way, way easier to find a D&D group than any other system.

And so, perhaps it's time to think what could be reworked, improved, bettered in the system... So D&D would have an edge in gamist fun.

As much as the fluff also, and all that.

To go beyond legacy, the % of shares, etc... as an attractive reason to play D&D for itself.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I find it sad, this obsession with the 'it is/it is not D&D' debate.

I don't find it sad in the least, nor do I find it an obsession. I find it an interesting issue to discuss. If you find my musings offensive, you are free to ignore them, but I do not see a reason for you to call my opinions "sad."

 

[kennew142]

I don't find it sad in the least, nor do I find it an obsession. I find it an interesting issue to discuss. If you find my musings offensive, you are free to ignore them, but I do not see a reason for you to call my opinions "sad."

I have to say that I find it an interesting discussion as well. This thread has avoided the histrionic cries of if it changes X, then it isn't D&D anymore and if you do anything different from me then you aren't playing D&D anymore. I always enjoy well thought out, rational discussion. It's just hard to find on the internet.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

I don't find it sad in the least, nor do I find it an obsession. I find it an interesting issue to discuss. If you find my musings offensive, you are free to ignore them, but I do not see a reason for you to call my opinions "sad."

It's sad because such things always end up getting quickly kind of obsessive and leaning over byzantine debates full of bitter debates, nitpickings and excomunication. Badwrongness.

 

[RonYon]

Rumor has it there are no undead creation spells, and no summoning spells of any kind.
There goes all my fun...

 

[MaelStorm]

Rumor has it there are no undead creation spells, and no summoning spells of any kind.
There goes all my fun...

Maybe not in the original PH... But there'll surely be a necromancer class for 4E or a class with those abilities. Rumors are not set in stones until you get some confirmation.

 

[Ahglock]

Maybe not in the original PH... But there'll surely be a necromancer class for 4E or a class with those abilities. Rumors are not set in stones until you get some confirmation.

That is not enough for some and justifiably so. You want a game to be able to be able to recreate core character concepts that you want to play.

Sure it would be unreasonable so expect a hexblade/shadowmancer/elvis impersonator concept to be available at launch.

But necromancer, nature mage, conjurer are fairly core concepts which one might expect in the core of a fantasy game. Waiting two years to have fun isn't exactly a selling point for a game. If it wasn't D&D I'd say a unarmed combatant class shouldn't be expected in the core of a fantasy game, but it is D&D and I'd say its somewhat reasonable to expect one. Even if it isn't D&D I would expect something along the lines of a berserker/barbarian class concept to be capable to be made form the core of virtually any fantasy game I'd pick up.

Sure they wanted to wait until they got it right, the page count can only fit so much I understand all the reasons. Still doesn't make the game fun for the barbarian lovers.