D&D 4E 4e, minis... and some of my thoughts

[Odhanan]

Realistically, though, how can minis NOT be required, given the logistics of a huge combat scenario?

Consider this: a party of five adventurers (one of them--ugh--a "Warlord") encounters 20 goblins. Some of the goblins have cover behind trees, some are hiding up IN the trees, and some are using ranged weapons, while others are using area of effect spells.

The party of adventurers spreads out; the wizard plans to use ranged spells, the ranger plans to shoot a few arrows, etc.

How on earth do you NOT use minis to represent this combat? Unless you want to just completely ignore all the distance, terrain, cover, and environmental details that make it interesting and just say something like this:

DM: "Okay, ranger, you can attack. Go ahead."
Ranger: "I attack, uh, goblin #4."
DM: "Roll."
Ranger: "Wait, how far away is the goblin?"
DM: "Doesn't matter. We aren't using minis. This is a role-playing game, dammit! Just attack."
Ranger: "(Sigh). I roll."

Instead of saying "it doesn't matter", the DM could just say "a few step ahead", or "20 feet. You can reach it and make a single attack," or anything more precise. The same way, one doesn't require miniatures for huge battles. All you really need is a blank sheet of paper, a pencil and eraser (or a white board and dry erase pens), draw a couple squares or blobs for rooms and hills, crosses/numbers for goblins and circled initials for PCs, and move stuff around as the combat ensues.

I mean... how complicated is this? I did it for 15 years before using miniatures at my game table. I don't use them because I would "need" them. I use them because I like them in my D&D.

 

[carmachu]

First let me clarify this question before discussion starts. By using the term mini, I am refering to any counter, token or other representation of a character, monster, NPC, etc.

Now I personally have been thinking about this for awhile and think that 4e will definitely be more mini-centric. Why?

Battles with numerous opponents as opposed to singular or small groups...How much harder will it be to keep track of the position, cover, concealment, etc. of 20 goblins plus five PC's. The new game makes this the norm as opposed to the exceptional battle.

SW saga ed. definitely states that one needs minis to play (whether this is true or not is irrelevant to the new player picking it up for the first time, he/she wil assume they are necessary for play).

The newest DoD minis...again we have commonly used monsters (trolls & ogres) as rares. This is not a problem that can be solved through the secondary market since many rares cost way too much.




More to come...but what are others thoughts on this matter?

Whether its 3.5 or 4e using minis...random packs of minis is a ponzi scheme. Its one of the reasons I stopped with magic the gathering. I cant take buying stuff that I might need randomly.

Its worse with D&D then magic, becuase you have encounters to build for.

*shrug* Thats why I rather buy in metal and get them painted. Cheaper in the long run.

 

[BryonD]

Whether its 3.5 or 4e using minis...random packs of minis is a ponzi scheme. Its one of the reasons I stopped with magic the gathering. I cant take buying stuff that I might need randomly.

Its worse with D&D then magic, becuase you have encounters to build for.

*shrug* Thats why I rather buy in metal and get them painted. Cheaper in the long run.

I think you don't know what a Ponzi scheme is.

But beside that, DDM is quite popular and successful as is. Both for mini gamers and RPGers. So regardless of your personal dislike, I think your assessment is off.

 

[Shortman McLeod]

I'd love to see a DM, ***any*** DM run THIS combat without miniatures, using only "imagination":

http://www.ptolus.com/images/DM_at_work.jpg

Yes, that's Monte Cook.

 

[Odhanan]

I'd love to see a DM, ***any*** DM run THIS combat without miniatures, using only "imagination":

http://www.ptolus.com/images/DM_at_work.jpg

Yes, that's Monte Cook.

It is possible.

The nature of the combat itself would be altered, since that number of miniatures implies a very tactical combat, whereas using descriptions and imagination would be focusing much more on the PCs actions, reactions and seeing the mass of enemies sometimes as a blur, sometimes as a single entity, but fundamentally, this is feasible.

 

[Shortman McLeod]

Strict adherence to the rules isn't a particularily defensible position.

You're kidding, right? Having a little fun with ol' Shortman?

The whole *point* of games is that they have rules. Without rules, you may as well play with GI Joe action figures or something.

It is perfectly acceptable to disregard some rules or change rules to suit yourself (Rule 0 and all that), but to suggest that it "isn't defensible" to adhere to the rules is just plain silly.

 

[Shortman McLeod]

It is possible.

The nature of the combat itself would be altered, since that number of miniatures implies a very tactical combat, whereas using descriptions and imagination would be focusing much more on the PCs actions, reactions and seeing the mass of enemies sometimes as a blur, sometimes as a single entity, but fundamentally, this is feasible.

But you're contradicting yourself. You say "it is possible" to run Monte's combat without minatures, but then you say "the nature of the combat itself would be altered." But if you alter it, you aren't running it the way Monte is running it.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Hey, feel free to dress up as an elf and LARP if you wish. But it goes against all common sense and the very RAW of 3.5 to suggest that combat can be run without miniatures *without losing something significant in the process*.

 

[ZappoHisbane]

*shrug* Thats why I rather buy in metal and get them painted. Cheaper in the long run.

That all depends on what price you put on your spare time. Prepainted minis are a godsend for those of us with little enough free time as it is. Not to mention lack of artistic ability and/or fine motor control.

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

Here's a little known fact (apparently, given the arguments I hear online): Minis are free, as long as you aren't playing in a sealed labratory "clean room".

By which I mean - use dice, use coins, use counters you print out, use scraps of paper with letters on them, use legos, use minis that aren't the same as the monsters, use M&Ms, or use whatever else is sitting around.

Minis are only as expensive as your desire to have "the right figure". While using the actual figures for the monsters may be more aesthetically pleasing, it isn't necessary, and I would think anyone who could run a game without minis could run a game using schematic minis.

Your mouth is stuffed with truth.

We play using colored crystal beads to represent mooks like orcs and kobolds (cost me about $2.00 per pound, and only because I picked lots of colors). If I need a larger creature, I use paper counters.

For PC's we have gotten into the hobby of creating our own miniatures from FIMO polymer clay... Its really easy and cheap to make a miniature "just like you like it" that way (as long as you are not unreasonable about quality control).

 

[WhatGravitas]

*without losing something significant in the process*.

That's the point: What is significant to you, is not significant to another group.

That's a typical case of: Different taste.

Cheers, LT.