D&D 4E 4e, minis... and some of my thoughts

[frankthedm]

Battles with numerous opponents as opposed to singular or small groups...How much harder will it be to keep track of the position, cover, concealment, etc. of 20 goblins plus five PC's. The new game makes this the norm as opposed to the exceptional battle.

YAY. I Love massed combats

If need be, use pennies for the gobbos. I'm not a fan of printed counters personally since I'd rather buy cheap figs than to use the time to make printed counters.

SW saga ed. definitely states that one needs minis to play (whether this is true or not is irrelevant to the new player picking it up for the first time, he/she wil assume they are necessary for play).

hasborg marketing speak.

The newest DoD minis...again we have commonly used monsters (trolls & ogres) as rares.

This is not a problem that can be solved through the secondary market since many rares cost way too much.

Unless someone is really into minatures in the first place , they won't have perfect representation for many foes they use. There are several large uncommons that still go for cheap. The Cerebrilith 48/60 Night Below figure is still going cheap enough and will be a passable stand in for an ogre or troll. Also there are a few altenatives since action figures are sometimes in that size bracket.

 

[GreatLemur]

Now I personally have been thinking about this for awhile and think that 4e will definitely be more mini-centric. Why?

Battles with numerous opponents as opposed to singular or small groups...How much harder will it be to keep track of the position, cover, concealment, etc. of 20 goblins plus five PC's. The new game makes this the norm as opposed to the exceptional battle.

Aw, good point. I hadn't thought of that, before, but it seems really likely to be the case.

Here's a little known fact (apparently, given the arguments I hear online): Minis are free, as long as you aren't playing in a sealed labratory "clean room".

By which I mean - use dice, use coins, use counters you print out, use scraps of paper with letters on them, use legos, use minis that aren't the same as the monsters, use M&Ms, or use whatever else is sitting around.

No argument here. But I think, for the purposes of this thread, those things count as miniatures. Imaro's talking about the rules requiring a grid with some kind of movable representation of the characters on it, not just the expense involved with buying WotC's annoying randomized miniature packs.

Speaking as someone who just ran a war campaign without miniatures, it can be done. I just used hand drawn sketches, pencil on paper.

Cool, I'd like to hear more about how that worked out. I use folded paper markers on a big sheet of one-inch graph paper, but I've been thinking about how things might work just worked out in pencil on a sheet of regular quarter-inch graph paper. I never tried it, because drawing and erasing markings for each character's position sounded a bit more irritating than moving my cheap-ass pseudo-minis, and one small sheet of paper would be harder for the whole group to see than the big, table-dominating battlemat I made.

Because I'm a Photoshop monkey, the solution that looks ideal to me right now is something like this. Or, hell, maybe even a wall-projected map with GM-controlled digital markers. We wouldn't even have to clear the pizza off the table, then.

 

[Betote]

I've been running 3.5 games without miniatures for some time, using a whiteboard and dry-erase markers. It ran smoothly; faster and more intuitive than with a grid and miniatures, actually, and we even played through some rather complicated encounters (a skirmish with 30+ opponents, a royal battle with 4 different sides...).

Nevertheless, nowadays we use a battle grid and miniatures. The reason? They look so cool on the table

 

[Olaf the Stout]

I've been running 3.5 games without miniatures for some time, using a whiteboard and dry-erase markers. It ran smoothly; faster and more intuitive than with a grid and miniatures, actually, and we even played through some rather complicated encounters (a skirmish with 30+ opponents, a royal battle with 4 different sides...).

Nevertheless, nowadays we use a battle grid and miniatures. The reason? They look so cool on the table

I agree that minis add a certain "coolness" factor to the battles. I used to print out monsters from Counter Collection Digital (from Fiery Dragon) to make cardboard counters for my game. However, after using one of the players minis for one game I found that the 3D minis had that certain visual edge to them. Since then my group has switched to using minis for almost all combats.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Lurker37]

I think the grid comment hits the nail on the head.

My group uses an old chalkboard whenever character positioning becomes important. We never, EVER use a grid for any game. The GM ( we play more than just D&D, and we think that switching job titles just because of which game you're playing is silly ) simply eyeballs it, and makes a ruling on whether you can reach the next target in a single round, and whether you'll still have time to take an action when you get there. He doesn't use grids or rulers or whatever. He just makes a judgement call based on what works from a narrative viewpoint, and also taking how active the player has been up until now - a player who's had to sit the action out for several rounds is likely to find themselves in striking distance when they re-enter the fray.

Someone pulled out some minis once. There wasn't enough room on the table to use them. We passed them around the table, shrugged, and went back to the chalkboard.

Heck, I often don't even bother with a chalkboard when it's my turn to GM.

 

[Irda Ranger]

First let me clarify this question before discussion starts. By using the term mini, I am refering to any counter, token or other representation of a character, monster, NPC, etc.

Using that definition, I think minis simply combat. A lot. There's no more arguing about sight lines or cover or how many goblins are left or "Was Lord Gardukan within the radius of that Fireball?" etc. Everyone can just look at the board and know. They don't have to ask me questions, which saves time for everyone.

D&D 3E combat takes too long for a number of reasons, but the minis aren't one of them.

I don't use the official minis or battlemats (or whatever they're called). I use pennies, spare dice, pre-printed tokens for the PC's and important NPC's, etc. I draw my maps freehand on a whiteboard that has a non-erasable 1" grid on it. It takes about 30 seconds to 1 minute to set up combat. I expect it will be the same in 4E, but that combat itself will go much faster for the reasons the designers have provided.

 

[Imaro]

Using that definition, I think minis simply combat. A lot. There's no more arguing about sight lines or cover or how many goblins are left or "Was Lord Gardukan within the radius of that Fireball?" etc. Everyone can just look at the board and know. They don't have to ask me questions, which saves time for everyone.

D&D 3E combat takes too long for a number of reasons, but the minis aren't one of them.

I don't use the official minis or battlemats (or whatever they're called). I use pennies, spare dice, pre-printed tokens for the PC's and important NPC's, etc. I draw my maps freehand on a whiteboard that has a non-erasable 1" grid on it. It takes about 30 seconds to 1 minute to set up combat. I expect it will be the same in 4E, but that combat itself will go much faster for the reasons the designers have provided.

I will say I hate the lull in the game that transpires when it's time to break out the minis and tiles, IMHO it has a more jarring effect than even the length of combat or waiting for one's turn since it is a total pause in involvement for all of the players at the table. I haven't figured out a way around this and it's worse when player's get to fleeing into new sections of an area which aren't drawn or placed yet. I will admit I'm one of those DM's who tends to only break the minis and mat out when I feel it's absolutely necessary, otherwise I feel it's not worth the bother.

I'll readily admit that maybe I'm remembering things from the past with more than a hint of nostalgia...or maybe I just wasn't following the rules, but I remember being able to run BD&D in the car on long trips with my parents for my brother and sister, and it seemed so much easier to do without a mat and minis. It was the game we could play anywhere and I miss this in a way.

Quick Side Note: I would really like to see WotC enhance their dungeon tiles, maybe with interlocking pieces that allow a dungeon or at least parts of it to be pre-constructed. This would also solve my biggest issue with them...the whole sliding around factor while your playing (especially since I'm getting the impression that 4e will promote battles that span the area of more than just one room). Otherwise I really like the product and the price point.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I will say I hate the lull in the game that transpires when it's time to break out the minis and tiles, IMHO it has a more jarring effect than even the length of combat or waiting for one's turn since it is a total pause in involvement for all of the players at the table. I haven't figured out a way around this and it's worse when player's get to fleeing into new sections of an area which aren't drawn or placed yet.

I pre-draw some maps on 3/4" graph paper I print myself. I square off the cells in Excel and use a dotted-line border to make it. But you're right, there's no way around it for random and unexpected encounters.

I will admit I'm one of those DM's who tends to only break the minis and mat out when I feel it's absolutely necessary, otherwise I feel it's not worth the bother.

Agreed.

I'll readily admit that maybe I'm remembering things from the past with more than a hint of nostalgia...or maybe I just wasn't following the rules, but I remember being able to run BD&D in the car on long trips with my parents for my brother and sister, and it seemed so much easier to do without a mat and minis. It was the game we could play anywhere and I miss this in a way.

It's not nostalgia. I was able to DM AD&D 2E while hiking through the woods with my friends.

The main thing though is that 3E has added a lot of tactical options which make combat more interesting, and give players more choices than "I swing my sword", but this added complexity adds to the time needed to run combat and also requires that we "off load" some of the information processing to tools like battlemats and minis.

2E (I only ever played one session of OD&D and never played 1E) was nice in that it was "low overhead", but I'm not sure I can give up my options either. It would be like going back to black and white TV having seen color. That's why I really hope the 4E designers can reduce the brain burden of combat without reducing the tactical options.

 

[Imaro]

I pre-draw some maps on 3/4" graph paper I print myself. I square off the cells in Excel and use a dotted-line border to make it. But you're right, there's no way around it for random and unexpected encounters.


Agreed.


It's not nostalgia. I was able to DM AD&D 2E while hiking through the woods with my friends.

The main thing though is that 3E has added a lot of tactical options which make combat more interesting, and give players more choices than "I swing my sword", but this added complexity adds to the time needed to run combat and also requires that we "off load" some of the information processing to tools like battlemats and minis.

2E (I only ever played one session of OD&D and never played 1E) was nice in that it was "low overhead", but I'm not sure I can give up my options either. It would be like going back to black and white TV having seen color. That's why I really hope the 4E designers can reduce the brain burden of combat without reducing the tactical options.

One thing I've noticed, with playing Exalted, is that there are other ways to have tactical combat besides the mini & mat form. I would argue Exalted (when facing a foe of equal or greater power than yourself) becomes a very tactical game...but the tactics are based on essence management, combination and usage of charms, anticipating your opponents abilities, weapon speed/Defense/attack bonus etc. Movement is very abstract in Exalted, which leads me to another point...

I think the emphasis on movement as the basis for tactics is what causes this near dependancy on the mat, and to a lesser degree minis, in D&D...and with the claims of more movement in 4e I see this as again, the game becoming more mini-centric.

 

[Nebulous]

Any "minis-centric" game can be run without them, using approximation, imagination, or GM fiat. Support for miniatures is in my view a plus, as it gives a strong reality to the game independent of the players or the DM, which in my view helps gameplay and the kind of storytelling done in RPGs.

As a fan of minis myself (although they are woefully overpriced, not always painted very well, and have questionable Common vs. Rare choices), i would like to see some more high-quality battlemaps to support the minis play. Preprinted, glossy, large enough to fill a whole table, with fun tactical displays. I realize that the DDM game does this already, but i would like to see even better than that. Without the little "triangles" to denote difficult terrain. Dungeon used to come bundled with maps like that sometimes.