4e modules and lack of empty space

[CapnZapp]

I think it's worthwhile to differentiate between theory and practice here.

The rules (=theory) does in no way mandate a "no empty rooms" approach.

In practice (=published official adventures) however, there's a clear tendency to avoid empty rooms.

For me, who think the "no empty room" approach is simplistic and artificial to the point where I'm sick just thinking of it, the solution is easy.

Don't run Wizards' pre-made adventures.

 

[bert1000]

I'm not sure what can be done with empty rooms. I think the reason that they have been left out is because they are mostly pointless.

Disagree here. I guess a completely empty stone room might be pointless, but empty (non-combat/skill challenge) rooms don't have to be pointless at all.

I had the same light bulb go off as the OP when I was looking over N1 Cult of the Reptile God. Here's the thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/244799-old-school-modules-space.html

In a nutshell, there is a large dungeon that ends the module and there was a lot of SPACE (e.g., areas with no 4e type encounters)! And the space was intelligent. Here's some examples,

a) an empty room of mud that was similar to other rooms that had mud and monsters -- keeps you on your toes
b) a storeroom that added details of the inhabitants (e.g., cheap wine with a couple bottles of special wine, weird rations for reptiles)
c) a cavern with undead that were acting as a bilge pump by using buckets to bail water out of the cavern, with no chance they will attack unless provoked. Awesome image! (and forshadows a cleric/creature capable of creating undead)

I was pleasantly surprised at the space between combat encounters within the dungeon, and the fact that the space ADDED a lot to the feel of the place.

I agree with the OP. Let's put the explore/space back in the 4e dungeons, as I think the combat encounter designs have been pretty good in published 4e stuff. Space/empty rooms can be a great part of the DM toolkit to add tension, and give the players interesting details of the inhabitants' life that makes the combat/skill challenges more meaningful.

 

[Prism]

Disagree here. I guess a completely empty stone room might be pointless, but empty (non-combat/skill challenge) rooms don't have to be pointless at all.

I had the same light bulb go off as the OP when I was looking over N1 Cult of the Reptile God. Here's the thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/244799-old-school-modules-space.html

Thanks for the link - good example

Also, this isn't just a change with 4e or these latest modules. To compare 1e and 3e Ravenloft. The orginal castle has 127 rooms and about 24 encounters whereas the 3e version has about 32 encounters in the same space and many of those encounters are larger in scope. In general the 3e version is a more populated castle than the 1e one.

Not having played the 3e Ravenloft and can't say how well it works but one of the excellent aspects of the original is the eery and deserted (yet clearly inhabited) nature of the castle. The empty spaces are certainly not wasted here

 

[Hussar]

Couple of points to remember.

In lower level modules, the sole reason for all that space was to make sure that encounters didn't run together. Each encounter would be dealt with in isolation because the PC's were so fragile that facing two or three encounters at once was a recipe for a TPK. And this goes all the way back to Caves of Chaos.

Why do you think each cave was pretty much (with a couple of exceptions) isolated and each encounter was more or less cut off from other encounters? So it allowed the players to contend with each encounter without dying all the time.

4e PC's are much, much tougher and can withstand facing a couple of encounters run together. You don't have to sleep after each encounter to get the cleric's two Cure Light Wounds spell back.

See, Prism, you talk about the eery and deserted nature of Ravenloft. I talk about how time consuming and ultimately boring it was going through room after empty room.

It comes down to a shift in perceptions. 4e is basing the game around things like Pirates of the Carribean and other action movies. Yes, you get the odd bit of wandering in the dark, but, it's a very small fraction of the whole movie. 4e would be a very poor system for doing Alien. But a very good system for doing Aliens.

As far as lots of empty space, there's also a bit of nostalgia going on here. Look at G1-3. There's not a whole lot of empty space. Every "room" is occupied. Or at least most are. The original Queen of the Demonweb Pits had few, if any empty rooms. Lots of wandering around on the Web, but, the rooms pretty much always had an encounter. A1 of the Slave Lords series had very few empty spaces. I could go on.

The difference here is that the newer modules have a lot less corridor.

 

[Cadfan]

See, Prism, you talk about the eery and deserted nature of Ravenloft. I talk about how time consuming and ultimately boring it was going through room after empty room.

I like empty rooms when they have reasons for existing. Because in a way that makes them not truly empty. I mean, if a room has no enemies, but it does have an important statue or something that sets the scene for the rest of the adventure (like a throne room in a castle, it kind of has to be there for everything to make sense, even if you don't fight in it), then I'm cool with it.

What I totally resented about empty rooms in previous editions was the assumption that it was cool to hide traps and treasure in empty rooms and require active search and spot rolls to avoid them. I also totally resented having to repeatedly make decisions like, "do you go left or right?" when I really didn't care, I was just trying to move to the next plot relevant point.

 

[DEFCON 1]

The only problem I have with your assumptions here is that WotC is using, (and someone correct me if I'm wrong here), the same simplistic design for their paragon level adventures as well...so when exactly have new players had enough experience running the game to be introduced to these more advanced concepts? I mean do they have to run simple style adventures all the way up to level 30 before they "graduate" to the level of competence that they can be trusted to really get a taste of what sets this hobby apart from boardgames and single-player CRPG's?

They will have enough experience when they've decided to actually take up the hobby enough to begin looking outside these introductory nine modules for their inspiration. When they begin playing Dungeon Magazine modules, when they play 3rd party modules, when they play individual DM's adventures, etc. etc. etc.

When that happens, they'll begin to see more advanced concepts and ideas for adventure design, because other writers will choose to take things further. But as far as WotC's "First Nine"... they don't know where new players will be plopped into the series, so why over-complicate things? Especially considering that players like you, Imaro... shouldn't necessarily need to be playing these introductory modules in the first place. You obviously have quite a bit of experience... why do you have to play these First Nine, but be bothered by the fact they are too simplistic?

Even just within a single campaign set that takes you from level 1 to level 30, it does not automatically turn you into a D&D and roleplaying expert. You could go through the entire nine modules and come out of it just as iffy and wishy-washy about what you are doing as you did when you started... especially if you didn't take to the game as intensely as some other people did. So for WotC to assume that by the P1 module that these new players have become ready to take on something akin to the Tomb of Horrors, is kind of ridiculous. And I tend to think that their design strategy for these modules seems to follow that fact.

 

[MerricB]

I don't miss empty rooms. What I miss are rooms that aren't a challenge as such, but provide interesting flavour or information for the players.

If you're in a dungeon and you encounter a room with a lot of empty coffins in it, but no monsters, then you've gained a clue that there are undead (probably vampires) about. It adds to the suspense in the game.

That's the sort of area I'd like to see more of in the Wizards adventures.

I'm not so fond of rooms that are just empty and are there just to waste time. (Look at some old AD&D modules, such as Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun. Although there are plenty of interesting "empty" rooms, there are also rooms that aren't even described!)

Cheers!

 

[Imaro]

They will have enough experience when they've decided to actually take up the hobby enough to begin looking outside these introductory nine modules for their inspiration. When they begin playing Dungeon Magazine modules, when they play 3rd party modules, when they play individual DM's adventures, etc. etc. etc.

So they should either get a subscription to DDI(from the same company who gave them all the other modules), and just know...magically, that these adventures will be different, Buy from 3PP which doesn't even register on majority of the fanbase's radar or hope they run into a more experienced DM who they can play under.

This makes no sense logically, you're going to judge WotC by the products you've bought from them, if their $25+ a pop adventures are simplistic...why would you believe Dungeon would be any different...and what lets anyone know that the printed modules are "For beginners" and Dungeon is for "advanced"... You probably will not even know of the existence of 3PP's and finding people to play with is one of the major problems of even advanced players... come on you are just reaching here.

When that happens, they'll begin to see more advanced concepts and ideas for adventure design, because other writers will choose to take things further. But as far as WotC's "First Nine"... they don't know where new players will be plopped into the series, so why over-complicate things? Especially considering that players like you, Imaro... shouldn't necessarily need to be playing these introductory modules in the first place. You obviously have quite a bit of experience... why do you have to play these First Nine, but be bothered by the fact they are too simplistic?

How is a module for Paragon and Epic levels...introductory? This doesn't make sense thye should be getting more advanced in design as they get higher up. I don't have to do anything, where did I claim this or are you creating a basis for an argument you are trying to start? Now...I would have liked to have supported the game modules with my hard-earned cash though, especially to have a good adventure to run on the fly if I don't have prep time... and I couldn't because their design was sub-par IMHO.

Even just within a single campaign set that takes you from level 1 to level 30, it does not automatically turn you into a D&D and roleplaying expert. You could go through the entire nine modules and come out of it just as iffy and wishy-washy about what you are doing as you did when you started... especially if you didn't take to the game as intensely as some other people did. So for WotC to assume that by the P1 module that these new players have become ready to take on something akin to the Tomb of Horrors, is kind of ridiculous. And I tend to think that their design strategy for these modules seems to follow that fact.

And you'll never be an "expert" of anything if all you're shown are the basics. You seem to want to err on the side of babying players/DM's all the way to 30th level, because they could hurt themselves, or aren't bright enough, or may not get it. Well what about the players they loose because every adventure feels the same after awhile and they really start to wonder again...why is this better than WoW or Descent.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Here's the biggest problem, Imaro... you are looking at things through the prism of your experienced gamer eyes.

To you... the modules seem simplistic. But to a new player... there is so much to have to understand... that even what some of us would consider "basic gamer knowledge" would be all-new and perhaps even frightening to them. And more importantly... if they haven't played anything in Dungeon, or any old modules, or any 3PP modules etc. etc., then they have no frame of reference to know if what they are playing is indeed overly-simplistic or not.

So again... it comes back to my original statement. I would not be surprised if the choices made by the authors of these WotC modules were to help facilitate new players into understanding and (hopefully) learning to love the game. And if the modules can be compelling enough that even experienced players can play them without clawing out their eyes, then so much the better.

It's the Pixar Studios method of moviemaking... make them for the kids, but add enough stuff to keep the parents entertained while watching it.

 

[Imaro]

Here's the biggest problem, Imaro... you are looking at things through the prism of your experienced gamer eyes.

To you... the modules seem simplistic. But to a new player... there is so much to have to understand... that even what some of us would consider "basic gamer knowledge" would be all-new and perhaps even frightening to them. And more importantly... if they haven't played anything in Dungeon, or any old modules, or any 3PP modules etc. etc., then they have no frame of reference to know if what they are playing is indeed overly-simplistic or not.

So again... it comes back to my original statement. I would not be surprised if the choices made by the authors of these WotC modules were to help facilitate new players into understanding and (hopefully) learning to love the game. And if the modules can be compelling enough that even experienced players can play them without clawing out their eyes, then so much the better.

It's the Pixar Studios method of moviemaking... make them for the kids, but add enough stuff to keep the parents entertained while watching it.

Well we can agree to disagree at this point. I feel time will tell whether this supposed method is a successful way to sell modules...or will WotC claim that modules don't sell (in a broad sense) when releasing 5e, and site these modules as examples. It will be interesting to see how it turns out.