D&D 3E/3.5 4E monsters in a 3E game

[Chimera245]

I love the simplicity and versatility of creating or changing monsters and the well-structured Roles for monsters that determine what tactics they use to attack the party from 4th Edition.

But I really like almost everything else from 3rd and 3.5.

How might I go about translating the numbers of 4E's monster system so that it would work in a 3E game for 3E characters?

Has anyone else worked out the numbers? Or if no one has, any ideas where I might start as far as doing the work myself?

 

[timbannock]

I love the simplicity and versatility of creating or changing monsters and the well-structured Roles for monsters that determine what tactics they use to attack the party from 4th Edition.

But I really like almost everything else from 3rd and 3.5.

How might I go about translating the numbers of 4E's monster system so that it would work in a 3E game for 3E characters?

Has anyone else worked out the numbers? Or if no one has, any ideas where I might start as far as doing the work myself?

I've redone the monsters for Lost City of Barakus (Necromancer Games) and recently started Red Hand of Doom (WoTC) in 4e style but using 3e rules.

The main changes were that I maxed out PC hit points as they level up, and also generally go with max HP for the badguys. Or, if they are weaklings meant to be killed, I turn them into minions. I also have used solos and elites, wherein I just maxed their HP and then added another amount (often equal to Con score, Con score x2, or nearly doubling their maxed out HP).

I generally make really weak enemies get an extra bonus or two to attack, just so they can actually hit my PCs (my PCs are good at building high AC characters).

Beyond that, it's a matter of eyeballing the enemies' attacks and spells and special abilities, and simplifying them into a smaller set of abilities.

By way of example: my spellcasters get their spell list axed big time. But, I add in any spells that are buffs right into their statblock and then forget about it. So if they have mage armor, I don't write it down, I just recalc their AC approrpriately. Same with Bull's Str and all that jazz.

Next, I figure out what are the 3-5 spells (and/or magic items w/ special properties, like potion of fly, wand of magic missile, etc.) that really make this enemy unique/dangerous/feel different/fun to play. Then I just go about writing those up in a 4e style way, but staying true (mostly) to 3e style rules. Some items I don't do this with (cure potions, some scrolls), I just leave them in the equipment section in case I might use them.

Examples:

Hobgoblins
Mwk Longsword (standard; at-will)
+6 melee; 1d8+2/19-20 damage.


Doom Hand Cleric
Hold Person (standard; encounter)
Range 20. Target must make a Will DC 15 or be paralyzed for 3 rounds (save ends).

Spiritual Weapon (standard; encounter)
Range 10; Duration 3 rounds. +4 melee; 1d8+1 force damage. Move action to redirect to a new target.

Summon Monster III (standard; encounter)
Range 8; Duration 3 rounds. Summons a Hell Hound.

Invisibility (immediate; encounter)
At start of combat. Becomes invisible until he attacks or casts a spell.


Uth-lar, Hobgoblin Bladebearer
Whirling Dervish (full-round; at-will)
Make 2 Shortsword attacks at +7 melee.

Artful Riposte (immediate; after using the Whirling Dervish power)
Uth-lar negates the next melee attack that successfully hits him.


Wyrmlord Koth, Bugbear Sorcerer
Mwk Morningstar (standard; at-will)
+9 melee; 1d8+3 damage.

Magic Missile Wand (standard; at-will)
2d4+2 damage.

Vampiric Attack (full-round; recharge 6)
+9 melee; 1d8+3 damage plus target must make a Fort DC 14 or be dazed for 1 round. Koth regains HP equal to the amount of damage dealt.

Lightning Bolt (standard; recharge 6)
Line 24 squares; 6d6 electricity damage, Reflex DC 15 for half.

Blindness (standard; encounter)
Range 12; target becomes blind permanently, Fort DC 14 to negate.

Flight (standard to trigger; encounter)
Koth quaffs his potion of fly and gains Speed fly 12 (average).



I've playtested this a bit so far and it seems to work. Encounters have been on the whole a round or three longer, but more interesting and much easier to run. I think my view is slanted because most of the monsters are already made, so I just copy in the stuff I want, make an alteration here and there, and then I'm done. It may be harder to build from the ground up this way.

Oh, and it's worth noting that I do throw in the occasional 4e-style "racial ability" like the Kobolds getting a free shift, and/or abilities that push or pull (usually if a creature had Awesome Blow, it gets a push). Smite becomes a basic melee attack that recharges on a 5 or 6.

Sorry if this is all randomly (dis)organized, but there you have it!

 

[Chimera245]

Well, I was talking mostly about the monster creation stuff, like on pages 174 and 184 of the 4E DMG. There are some charts on p. 184 that basically let you instantaneously stat out any monster you can think up, and run it on the fly. Just pick a level, pick a role, maybe give it a special ability or two, and you're done. That's my favorite part of 4th Edition. No more spending forever crunching numbers inbetween sessions to create new monsters.

I want a chart like that for 3rd Edition.

I might want to make a level 3 Artillery monster that can shoot Magic Missiles out of its eyes, and pages 184-185 tells me everything I need to do to make it in moments.

But I couldn't throw that monster at a group of level 3 characters if those characters were made for 3rd edition. The numbers would be wrong.

I want help making a chart like that that's balanced for 3rd Edition's power scale.

If someone could even just give me tips on how to classify 3E monsters into the 4E roles, I could go through all the monsters, and see what stats monsters of the same role tend to have each level, and make up the chart that way.

 

[4eHater]

4E has some cool monsters that I sure wish could be easily converted to 3.5E. Unfortunately, what with the wacky way they do monster creation in 4th Edition and the completely un-D&D rules set they devised for 4E, it's downright more difficult to translate a 4E to 3.5E than the difficulty of translating 1e, 2e, and 3e monster to 3.5e combined!

The Dragon Magazine article on that Prince of Imps is one I'd like to see a 3.5e version for, and the Assassin Imp (though, a normal imp with the shadow template would suit quite nicely). The new monster in the Yeenoghu Demonomicon and some of the creatures in the 4E Monster Manual would've been nice to see 3.5e style.

 

[timbannock]

Unfortunately, what with the wacky way they do monster creation in 4th Edition and the completely un-D&D rules set they devised for 4E, it's downright more difficult to translate a 4E to 3.5E than the difficulty of translating 1e, 2e, and 3e monster to 3.5e combined!

Not sure what you mean by that, but I've got modules from 2e, 3e, and Castles & Crusades that all see use at my table, and I haven't had any trouble thinking about converting them to 4e.

I've probably done MORE work with my 3E campaigns now that 4E is out, because I love the design philosophy behind 4E, though my players are 3E die-hards so far.

I'll put my money where my mouth is, though. I'll try to convert a few 4e monsters to 3.5E in the next week. Give me a request list and I'll do up a few and tell you what it took to make 'em.

Deal?

 

[gigglestick]

This is my concern too. My players and I enjoy 3.5 (and now 3.75/ Pathfinder) much more than 4E. So, I'm not interested in converting 3.5 to 4E. I want to convert 4E stuff to 3.5.

Anyy suggestions or rules of thumb would be great.

Thanks

 

[Sammael]

I'm simply taking any cool 4E monster abilities I see and retrofitting them as special abilties of 3.5 creatures. Same with creatures; if I see a 4E creature I like, I envision what type of creature it would be in 3.5, build a creature of that type and the appropriate number of HD, and add the abilities back.

 

[balthanon]

How might I go about translating the numbers of 4E's monster system so that it would work in a 3E game for 3E characters?

Has anyone else worked out the numbers? Or if no one has, any ideas where I might start as far as doing the work myself?

It looks like Pathfinder might have worked out the appropriate numbers from a look at their Beta pdf document. I hadn't actually noticed it when I read through the document the first time, however, they have charts that provide average stats from CR 1/2 - 20 in the book.

It won't let you do a direct conversion from 4e, but it gives you a similar system to work with for your own custom monsters. (Though you could take the special abilities and flavor from 4e and substitute in these stats.)

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Honestly, the highly-touted 4e monster creation system already exists in 3e...it just goes by monster type instead of monster role. In 4e, you say "I want a level X monster that makes really powerful attacks from a distance. Hmm...let's make it a dragon, so it has a breath weapon and can fly." In 3e, you say "I want a CR X dragon. Hmm...I want it to make really powerful attacks from a distance, so I'll give it a more damaging breath weapon damage and better fly speed."

The reason people think the two systems are so different is because CR in 3e just doesn't really work well. (If the designers had just tried to go by HD instead of arbitrarily throwing CR into the mix...but that's neither here nor there.) The reason CR was introduced was because the power level of a given character varies more in 3e than in 4e, so even if you manage to make a plug-in monster role system for 3e, you're going to have the same issue--you won't know what HD you should use for your party. Here's a tip: The reason many monsters have HD higher than their CR is to give them higher HP, attacks, and saves. That's it. If you want to build a CR X monster, you can just as easily make an X HD creature with greater magic fang, greater resistance, false life as spell-like abilities and you won't have to add on all those extraneous HD. Or give it an ability that adds whatever numbers you want, but that's too arbitrary for my taste.

At the most basic level, both 3e and 4e function by taking a level appropriate chassis and then throwing numbers at the page and making up whatever abilities you want until it feels right. In 3e, you add HD until you think the numbers are right for your party; in 4e, you use the different damage values and make abilities at-will, recharge, or daily until you get the right difficulty. At the core, "Outsider" just means that its HD are all-around good; "Artillery" just means its attacks are longer-ranged. Numbers are numbers; it's the abilities that make a creature unique and cement its role, and making those up is the same in both systems.

 

[TheClone]

Has anybody tried using 4e monsters without changes in a 3e game? I'm quite a lazy guy, so I love 4e DMing and 4e monsters, but my group loves 3e playing (and as a player do, too). So can't I just use a 4e monster, using its level for its CR?

I checked some values for zombies at least. HP for brutes and the like from 4e are roughly the same as for 3e. Saves vs. Defenses is also not much different summed up, although the good saves are different. But I guess the main difference will be damage, because it rises quicker in 3e than in 4e. Maybe one could give the 4e monsters extra attacks? Like for every 5 levels or 5 (or 6 or 7) points attack bonus an additional attack, like in 3e?

Has anybody tried this or another simple rule for simplifying the DM's job in 3e? I don't wanna change statblocks and stuff. Maybe some small changes while using the monster, but nothing that requires prep time.