D&D 4E 4e Multiclassing structure and Weapons of Legacy, Dragonmarks, etc.

[jeffhartsell]

Graf, agree with you on the 3e balancing. Giving out Sp abilities that were below your level did not break anything. Heck, even giving a decent level appropriate ability was not a problem given how the system was set up.

From what we've seen in 4e the powers scale much better. A 1w+stat at-will attack is still a good choice to use at 15th level. A 3rd-level encounter power and 2nd-level utility power are still in play at 15th-level. Heck, that 2nd-level utility goes to 30.

My hunch is that since the power-swap MC feats did not grant power bonus that feats in general won't. Otherwise those feats would have been the prime spot to do it.

If a feats gives me a bonus daily or encounter power that is better than an at-will, that seems like it will be powerful. There are enough feats given out that giving up a few to get "power advantage" is big. If it requires 2 or 3 pre-req feats, is that enough to balance it?

In 3e you have weak pre-feats to get to an uber feat. I don't think 4e is going that direction.

I'd love to get bonus powers with feats. But power swapping lets you create the flavor of something your class cannot do but still keep power creep in check.

"Joe" can be the best, most bad ass dwarf fighter by taking dwarf and fighter feats or he can do something no other fighter does by taking cleric power-swap feats PLUS he takes the dwarf dragonmark power swap feats to give him house flavor. He's not the best fighter, but he is way more flexible.

Plus if dragonmarks open up ritual casting that will fill the out-of-combat coolness of the setting flavor. The teleport and greater teleport marks will have to be done via rituals. But the least and lesser definitely can be done with power swap.

A character gets 12 feats from 1-20. Using 4 for MC and 3 for dragonmarks leaves 5 for other racial and class feats. Or you can go ape on additional dragonmark feats.

And by 20th you have 10 non-paragon powers, swapping out 6 of those for dual-class and dragonmarks gives you a wide array of powers outside the typical scope of a single class character.

The downside to powerswapping is you have to have multiple daily dragonmark powers that get upgraded since at 30th your lowest is 19th. So if you make the daily power swap start at 9th-level, you need to make at a minimum a 9th, 15th, and 19th-level dragonmark power for that feat.

Utilities don't go away, so you can make a 2nd-level lesser dragonmark that swaps out your utility power and it is good to go through 30.

The least working like the intro MC makes sense. You get a bonus power, either an at-will as encounter or an encounter as a daily.

 

[Kunimatyu]

The way I'd do it is simple: each dragonmark would be a feat(generally taken at character creation) that gives the character surprisingly cheap access to a an out-of-combat ritual. Depending on the mark, there might be a few other feats connected to it that give small numerical bonuses to related activities.

Then, make a paragon path for each Dragonmark(Heir of Siberys would *only* be a Paragon Path, no lesser dragonmark) that gives you combat options for your dragonmark.

For example: a heir of Lyrandar could take a Lesser Mark feat and get a simple "control the winds for sailing purposes" ritual that doesn't require any particular skills to pull off.

Then, if the player wants, they can take the "Heir of Lyrandar" Paragon Path at 11th, which lets them start throwing around windblasts and fog clouds, and gives them access to a more powerful wind control ritual.

 

[jeffhartsell]

The way I'd do it is simple: each dragonmark would be a feat(generally taken at character creation) that gives the character surprisingly cheap access to a an out-of-combat ritual. Depending on the mark, there might be a few other feats connected to it that give small numerical bonuses to related activities.

Then, make a paragon path for each Dragonmark(Heir of Siberys would *only* be a Paragon Path, no lesser dragonmark) that gives you combat options for your dragonmark.

Then, if the player wants, they can take the "Heir of Lyrandar" Paragon Path at 11th, which lets them start throwing around windblasts and fog clouds, and gives them access to a more powerful wind control ritual.

Making paragon paths the "thing" for dragonmarks means you cannot be Lyrandar Stormwarden and have dragonmark powers. Dragonmarks still make sense to do as feats. It is just how.

And I agree that access to rituals without comps/cost make sense to tie into the least dragonmark. The "cost" to teleport is having the least, lesser, & greater dragonmark, instead of spending GP. But the feats need something else spiffy otherwise they are underwhelming. The greater dragonmark should also do something in-combat as well as provide access to the teleport ritual. Even if that something is to make the power gained from the least mark better.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Making paragon paths the "thing" for dragonmarks means you cannot be Lyrandar Stormwarden and have dragonmark powers. Dragonmarks still make sense to do as feats. It is just how.

I'm not following you here -- is Lyrandar Stormwarden a 3.5 prestige class? If so, how is it relevant?

 

[jeffhartsell]

Stormwarden is a ranger paragon path. If the lesser and/or greater dragonmarks are only available in a paragon path, then those types of characters won't be able to have paragon paths.

Feats seems to make sense since the Eberron feats were underpowered and now that characters get more feats, it is okay to make dragonmark feats power swapping feats.

It does not appear to be out of line to allow a character to multiclass, take a paragon path, and take dragonmark power swap feats.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing what WOTC has in mind for dragonmarks.

 

[Kunimatyu]

I'm not sure I agree -- if a PC wants to have their dragonmark play a huge role, a Paragon Path seems like a natural fit, especially as a Dragonmarked house would probably not take kindly to a marked character joining another unrelated organization.

But hey, I guess it's up to the designers -- we'll see what things look like in a year.

 

[jeffhartsell]

I'm hopefully we will get some dragonmark crunch on DDI this year. That is the buzz anyway, and the R&D guys have said they want to beta test rules via DDI. We'll see if they stick to that idea.

I'm wagering that bard, monk, barbarian, sorcerer, and druid will be out on DDI before the PHB2 hits the shelf. Same with swordsage before FRCS is released.

So I am also guessing that dragonmarks will be released before 4ECS is released. Those are core pieces to the setting fluff and crunch.

 

[Blackeagle]

I'm wagering that bard, monk, barbarian, sorcerer, and druid will be out on DDI before the PHB2 hits the shelf. Same with swordsage before FRCS is released.

I don't know about that. Wizards has to walk a fine line with DDI. They have to release enough stuff to make it worth $10/month, but they don't want to release so much of the good stuff that they cut into the sales of PHB2 and FRCS. I'm guessing we'll see some of those classes on DDI, but not all of them.

In general I think most stuff on DDI will be stuff that's never going to appear in print. Adventures, NPCs, encounter areas, feats, powers, etc. I do think it's likely we'll see a new core class (probably one of the ones you listed) on DDI fairly soon after it starts up, if only to attract people to the service, but I don't think it'll be a real regular thing.