D&D 4E 4e Newb Combat Questions

[raindog308]

Getting up to speed on 4e combat...some simple DM questions...

(1) Initiative order is a 3rd level wizard acting before a group of Orc Raiders. This is round 1.

The wizard casts sleep. The attack is INT vs Will. Wizard's INT is 18 (+4).

Attack roll is d20 (rolls 12) + 4 + 1/2 level (1) = 17
Orc Raiders' Will is 12, so this is a hit.

Now...the effect of each spell (p160 PHB) says

"Hit: The taget is slowed (save ends). If the target fails its first saving through against this power, the target becomes unconscious (save ends)."

So if I read this literally it means:

Round 1, Orc turn: they are slowed. At the end of their turn, they make a save. If they succeed, they are no longer slowed. If they fail, they are asleep.

Round 2, Orc turn: If they were asleep, if they make a save and wake up, back to normal (not slowed). If they were slowed, if they make a save, they are back to normal.

In other words, the "sleep" part of sleep (unconscious) is not instant but rather happens at the end of the Orcs' turn if they fail a save. Practically, this means that the target of a Sleep spell always has one more turn to act. I guess it takes a while to fall asleep.

(2) Speaking of initiative, let's say we have a couple groups of monsters - a group of Orc Raiders and some Orc Beserkers with a Dire Boar, attacking the party from two sides. Would you roll each group of monsters' initiative separately? The rules don't really clarify this. I've always played that each distinct group of monsters is a separate initiative slot, so in this case I'd roll initiative for the raiders and initiative for the Beserker/Boar group.

(3) From what I can find in 4e, which direction a character or monster is facing really makes no difference. E.g., there's no backstabbing, though Rogues have Sneak Attack which doesn't depend on facing. Am I reading things correctly?

(4) Do Rogue First Strike and Sneak Attack powers stack? Let's say the initiative order is 3rd level Rogue, Monster. The rogue has First Strike because the monster hasn't acted yet, which grants the rogue combat advantage. Rogue does a melee attack with a dagger and hits. Does he also get the Sneak Attack +2d6 damage? (Or 2d8 if he has the Backstabber feat)

 

[DracoSuave]

Getting up to speed on 4e combat...some simple DM questions...

(1) Initiative order is a 3rd level wizard acting before a group of Orc Raiders. This is round 1.

The wizard casts sleep. The attack is INT vs Will. Wizard's INT is 18 (+4).

Attack roll is d20 (rolls 12) + 4 + 1/2 level (1) = 17
Orc Raiders' Will is 12, so this is a hit.

Now...the effect of each spell (p160 PHB) says

"Hit: The taget is slowed (save ends). If the target fails its first saving through against this power, the target becomes unconscious (save ends)."

First off... you roll a separate roll for each orc, not one roll that covers all targets.

So if I read this literally it means:

Round 1, Orc turn: they are slowed. At the end of their turn, they make a save. If they succeed, they are no longer slowed. If they fail, they are asleep.

Round 2, Orc turn: If they were asleep, if they make a save and wake up, back to normal (not slowed). If they were slowed, if they make a save, they are back to normal.

If they were slowed on round 2, they didn't fail their save on round 1 and wouldn't be slowed, but asleep.

In other words, the "sleep" part of sleep (unconscious) is not instant but rather happens at the end of the Orcs' turn if they fail a save. Practically, this means that the target of a Sleep spell always has one more turn to act. I guess it takes a while to fall asleep.

This is correct.

(2) Speaking of initiative, let's say we have a couple groups of monsters - a group of Orc Raiders and some Orc Beserkers with a Dire Boar, attacking the party from two sides. Would you roll each group of monsters' initiative separately? The rules don't really clarify this. I've always played that each distinct group of monsters is a separate initiative slot, so in this case I'd roll initiative for the raiders and initiative for the Beserker/Boar group.

Each group rolls separately.

(3) From what I can find in 4e, which direction a character or monster is facing really makes no difference. E.g., there's no backstabbing, though Rogues have Sneak Attack which doesn't depend on facing. Am I reading things correctly?

Yes. It's assumed if someone is sauntering behind you, you'd have the good sense to turn around and cover yourself. Facing doesn't really work in this kinda of combat system.

(4) Do Rogue First Strike and Sneak Attack powers stack? Let's say the initiative order is 3rd level Rogue, Monster. The rogue has First Strike because the monster hasn't acted yet, which grants the rogue combat advantage. Rogue does a melee attack with a dagger and hits. Does he also get the Sneak Attack +2d6 damage? (Or 2d8 if he has the Backstabber feat)

Absolutely. Sneak Attack only cares about combat advantage. How you get that combat advantage is not relevant. All combat advantage counts for it.

 

[Grandpa]

If they were slowed on round 2, they didn't fail their save on round 1 and wouldn't be slowed, but asleep.

Out of curiosity, if the save against the slowed condition failed, why wouldn't it be slowed when it becomes unconscious?

 

[Someone]

Out of curiosity, if the save against the slowed condition failed, why wouldn't it be slowed when it becomes unconscious?

I always thought the power meant "if the target fails his first saving throw he's no longer slower, but unconscious instead (save ends)" but it's true that nothing explicitly says that targets can't be both slowed and unconscious, with separate saves.

 

[DracoSuave]

Out of curiosity, if the save against the slowed condition failed, why wouldn't it be slowed when it becomes unconscious?

Interesting point. But on round 2, there's no way they can't be slowed and still be unconscious.

Outside of bonus saving throws off their turn.

 

[the_amnesiac]

There's actually nothing in the description of Sleep that says the Slowed condition ends with the Unconscious condition begins. So they could potentially fail the first save against slow, become unconscious, fail the second save against slow, make the save against unconscious, and wake up but still be slowed.

 

[DracoSuave]

There's actually nothing in the description of Sleep that says the Slowed condition ends with the Unconscious condition begins. So they could potentially fail the first save against slow, become unconscious, fail the second save against slow, make the save against unconscious, and wake up but still be slowed.

This can happen at the round 3 save.

Unless someone's handing out free saving throws, it doesn't happen on the round 2 save.

 

[Nikosandros]

There's actually nothing in the description of Sleep that says the Slowed condition ends with the Unconscious condition begins. So they could potentially fail the first save against slow, become unconscious, fail the second save against slow, make the save against unconscious, and wake up but still be slowed.

The new version published in HoftFL actually specifies that the target is unconscious instead of slowed. Presumably the compendium should have the new version after the 12th.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

There's actually nothing in the description of Sleep that says the Slowed condition ends with the Unconscious condition begins. So they could potentially fail the first save against slow, become unconscious, fail the second save against slow, make the save against unconscious, and wake up but still be slowed.

No, because it is a single effect from a single source and thus has only one saving throw. So if on round 3 an unconscious orc makes its save it has thrown off the effect, it isn't unconscious anymore and it also isn't slowed anymore. The HotFL rewording of Sleep is just clarification, it doesn't actually change any rules.

More generally to the OP initiative TECHNICALLY according to the PHB is rolled separately for every combatant. The DMG then provides a bunch of advise on how to run encounters in a practical sense where they suggest things like bulk initiative for all monsters of a given type. It is really up to the DM's judgment to decide how and when to take shortcuts of this type.

Another option that the DMG didn't mention and which I find is quite effective is to pre-roll initiative (and often Stealth check) rolls when you write up the encounter. That way you know right off where the monsters go in the init order and all you need are the rolls for the players to put it all on your initiative tracker. You can even have the PLAYERS preroll an initiative roll (say at the end of the previous encounter) if you know another encounter is coming right up. That way you can be putting it together while the players dither around figuring out what they do in their short rest, search, decide which door to go through, etc.

 

[Zaran]

First off... you roll a separate roll for each orc, not one roll that covers all targets.

The Major Spoilers: Critical Hits podcasts does it one die roll per power. I can't stand that! It really nerfs the wizard's attacks. And if I remember right the GM TPK'd them once with an AOE that was a crit.