Holy Bovine
First Post
A pretty straightforward question - has there been any tidbit released as to whether there will be NPC classes in the DMG? I really liked their inclusion in 3E and hope they do something similar in 4E.
D&D 4E 4E NPC Classes - has there been any info?
- Thread starter Holy Bovine
- Start date
Carnivorous_Bean
First Post
Shroomy said:
Thank God for that. There's nothing to make a genre seem completely unheroic like having 20th level commoners (you think you're a hero, Mr. Level 15 Fighter? That guy serving you booze at the inn is level 18) and 20th level experts (this lawyer is the best in the land, he has the hit points of a small army because he can twist the truth with the best of them
!)Long live NPCS built with monster rules!
Jack99
Adventurer
Carnivorous_Bean said:Thank God for that. There's nothing to make a genre seem completely unheroic like having 20th level commoners (you think you're a hero, Mr. Level 15 Fighter? That guy serving you booze at the inn is level 18) and 20th level experts (this lawyer is the best in the land, he has the hit points of a small army because he can twist the truth with the best of them
Long live NPCS built with monster rules!
Hear hear.
NPC classes would have been fine, if limited to say maximum 5th level (or around there).
I suspect they'll just give out skill points by fiat to those who need them, rather than giving non combatants levels in expert or commoner types - those never worked out very well anyway, since the bundled hp and BAB didn't make masses of sense.
There is a need for non-heroic combatants, since they're emphasising that PCs are heroes from Level 1, but they could perhaps do this with a few templates rather than full blown classes.
There is a need for non-heroic combatants, since they're emphasising that PCs are heroes from Level 1, but they could perhaps do this with a few templates rather than full blown classes.
Holy Bovine
First Post
Carnivorous_Bean said:Thank God for that. There's nothing to make a genre seem completely unheroic like having 20th level commoners (you think you're a hero, Mr. Level 15 Fighter? That guy serving you booze at the inn is level 18) and 20th level experts (this lawyer is the best in the land, he has the hit points of a small army because he can twist the truth with the best of them
Long live NPCS built with monster rules!
I can't say i ever used NPC classes above 10th myself but to me the idea is solid. Weaker classes to represent the masses, to me, is a good idea (and any 15th level fighter who feels overshadowed by a 20th level commoner should behead himself in shame). Also going by the suggestions in the DMG, the NPCs would be quite old by the time they reached 20th level reducing further their physical stats.
Amrynn Moonshadow
First Post
I didn't hate the NPC classes . . . and i'm sad to see them go. the examples you guys used are statistical outliers that only bad GM's would use.
I'm pretty sure in a "real" D&D world that a 20 year old wizards apprentice (ie. Wizard lvl 1 or whatever) would get his arse handed to him by a guy who was a blacksmith for 20 years (ie. 45 year old Expert lvl 5 or whatever).
That doesn't mean that non PCs will be always getting their butts kicked by non heroes. I thought the aristrocrat was a good class for all of those lords and kings and whatever. A young prince will learn some form of combat, diplomacy and so forth, and probably survive a fight better than a dirt farmer -- yet not be as hearty as a PC (fighterish class) of a similar age and experience level.
But it all depends on the type of game and game world that's being run. In my games the PCs were the heroes, but it's not like they lived as Gods in a world of weaklings. (otherwise why the heck would there be any rulers save for PC classes?)
My games weren't set up where 5th level parties couldn't just kill entire towns and take all of their stuff.
I don't see how 50 year old peasant farmers wouldn't have more skill ranks in nature or ride or whatever than a 1st level ranger or whatever. In my games you get experience from more than just experience point tables. The only way to get better at something doesn't always involve killing random encounters.
But perhaps I just have a vastly different point of view on the subject of how towns and game worlds work mechanically.
I'm pretty sure in a "real" D&D world that a 20 year old wizards apprentice (ie. Wizard lvl 1 or whatever) would get his arse handed to him by a guy who was a blacksmith for 20 years (ie. 45 year old Expert lvl 5 or whatever).
That doesn't mean that non PCs will be always getting their butts kicked by non heroes. I thought the aristrocrat was a good class for all of those lords and kings and whatever. A young prince will learn some form of combat, diplomacy and so forth, and probably survive a fight better than a dirt farmer -- yet not be as hearty as a PC (fighterish class) of a similar age and experience level.
But it all depends on the type of game and game world that's being run. In my games the PCs were the heroes, but it's not like they lived as Gods in a world of weaklings. (otherwise why the heck would there be any rulers save for PC classes?)
My games weren't set up where 5th level parties couldn't just kill entire towns and take all of their stuff.
I don't see how 50 year old peasant farmers wouldn't have more skill ranks in nature or ride or whatever than a 1st level ranger or whatever. In my games you get experience from more than just experience point tables. The only way to get better at something doesn't always involve killing random encounters.
But perhaps I just have a vastly different point of view on the subject of how towns and game worlds work mechanically.
Li Shenron
Legend
I'm pleased they are gone.
I only used them when they were used for pregenerated NPCs in published adventures.
They really make little sense. Every sane person living inside D&D would prefer to take a regular class, with very rare exceptions.
I only used them when they were used for pregenerated NPCs in published adventures.
They really make little sense. Every sane person living inside D&D would prefer to take a regular class, with very rare exceptions.
Amrynn Moonshadow
First Post
Li Shenron -- true, evey sane person living inside D&D "WOULD" prefer to take a regular class . . . however not every person living inside D&D is born to be a hero. The king of craptown wouldn't need to hire adventurers to kill the dragon if he was a PC class in the first place. Where does that leave the PCs? I just used the NPC classes as mechanical filler. There is no good reason for a blacksmith to have any idea about how to sneak attack someone, or have 4 bonus fighter feats. He didn't go to a war college, or learn to be a rogue . . . but dude needs to have enough HD to allow for him to have 12+ skill ranks in Craft to be able to make good quality stuff. Hence: the expert class.
Just my opinion . . . then again, i'm a DM who likes to make things harder for himself. Yes, I've stat blocked random tavern npcs before . . . you're not really displaying a psychopathology unless you're up late at nights figuring out how many experience points a journeyman candlestick maker would have . . .
Just my opinion . . . then again, i'm a DM who likes to make things harder for himself. Yes, I've stat blocked random tavern npcs before . . . you're not really displaying a psychopathology unless you're up late at nights figuring out how many experience points a journeyman candlestick maker would have . . .
