GMforPowergamers
Legend
tide of iron, and sly flourish are the two I hear lamented the most from the kids, Commander strike and wolf pack tactics by my older players
D&D 4E 4e players who converted to 5th edition
- Thread starter Nebulous
- Start date
tide of iron, and sly flourish are the two I hear lamented the most from the kids, Commander strike and wolf pack tactics by my older players
Krakenspire
First Post
I've played a number of editions but have mostly played 4E with proper rules (as I was to young to fully understand the older editions specifics). My gaming group has a lot of tactical gamers in there (Game-workshop junkies) so the miniature combat was relatively quick and easy for us, and the different monster miniatures and PC miniatures that could be purchased and painted really appealed to their hobby side. Not that anything is stopping us in 5E.
As a DM I found that the strict treasure guidelines were excellent in 4E and did not require balancing as much as the current 5E treasure guidelines (so roll 8 times on the horde table before 5th level.... or somesuch). I'm not sure where the treasure sweet spot is yet, but I suppose that's ok in some ways. The fact that you have more flexibility to make spells, own property/buisnesses, create magic items etc... actually makes the game more creative and varied. No longer do you have to worry that the taxes from a high level PC's land grant will be funneled into magic weapons and armour thus unbalancing your carefully constructed 4E environment. Reduced power on magic items and bounded accuracy go a long way to evening out treasure issues.
I do love a good min/max and 4E played into that quite a bit, but without the online building tools it was often difficult to get everything you wanted in a PC. Bounded accuracy again comes to the rescue here, and PC can be great even with so/so stats, even at higher levels.
What I don't overly like about 5E is the annoying monster spell slots. Extremely irritating and just requires to much record keeping for a DM for an NPC spellcaster. Like I can remember what all the spells do. 4E did an excellent job simplifying spellcasters and giving monsters each a personality vice a bag of hitpoints. Also I miss my minions. I'm sure I can create some but there was something exceedingly satisfying about throwing a bunch of 1hp kobold minions at PCs and having them burn through the hordes relatively quickly. Not quite the same in 5E.
Edit: I also miss my warforged and the artificer class. Loved the 4E artificer, and the character I built with it. Not sure how I can do that in 5e...yet
As a DM I found that the strict treasure guidelines were excellent in 4E and did not require balancing as much as the current 5E treasure guidelines (so roll 8 times on the horde table before 5th level.... or somesuch). I'm not sure where the treasure sweet spot is yet, but I suppose that's ok in some ways. The fact that you have more flexibility to make spells, own property/buisnesses, create magic items etc... actually makes the game more creative and varied. No longer do you have to worry that the taxes from a high level PC's land grant will be funneled into magic weapons and armour thus unbalancing your carefully constructed 4E environment. Reduced power on magic items and bounded accuracy go a long way to evening out treasure issues.
I do love a good min/max and 4E played into that quite a bit, but without the online building tools it was often difficult to get everything you wanted in a PC. Bounded accuracy again comes to the rescue here, and PC can be great even with so/so stats, even at higher levels.
What I don't overly like about 5E is the annoying monster spell slots. Extremely irritating and just requires to much record keeping for a DM for an NPC spellcaster. Like I can remember what all the spells do. 4E did an excellent job simplifying spellcasters and giving monsters each a personality vice a bag of hitpoints. Also I miss my minions. I'm sure I can create some but there was something exceedingly satisfying about throwing a bunch of 1hp kobold minions at PCs and having them burn through the hordes relatively quickly. Not quite the same in 5E.
Edit: I also miss my warforged and the artificer class. Loved the 4E artificer, and the character I built with it. Not sure how I can do that in 5e...yet
With bound accuracy you don't really need minions anymore. You can use hordes of goblins and orcs at higher levels.
Krakenspire
First Post
Emphasis mine. I loved minions at lower levels as well. It feels like it takes something out of the game when you just kill 2 goblins at 1st level, or 4 kobolds etc... It significantly reduces the potential complexity of an encounter, when the weedy kobolds were there for flavour when the real threat is the dragonpriest, or even the traps the kobolds are running around.
ThirdWizard
First Post
I've been playing RPGs for just over 20 years, and I like a huge variety of RPGs, but I have to say that the last several years were pretty much D&D 4e with only a smattering of other stuff.
So, the main thing I liked about 4e coming from 3e was the ease of prep on the DM side of things. I played high level 3e previously, and it was something like an 2-4 hours of prep for every 1 hour of playtime in those levels, homebrewing everything. 4e D&D was a breath of fresh air.
5e seems to have this quality as well. At least, thus far 5e planning has been very straightforward and quick. Now, what is high level 5e going to be like? I don't know, but I'm willing to give it a try. I do not think it will be as involved as 3e, however.
As to why the change? I like playing lots of RPGs and I'm always happy to try something new. So far this campaign is going very well. I'll see how it goes and make a judgement from there, but my main reason for switching to 4e seems to be something that has been replicated.
Fingers crossed!
So, the main thing I liked about 4e coming from 3e was the ease of prep on the DM side of things. I played high level 3e previously, and it was something like an 2-4 hours of prep for every 1 hour of playtime in those levels, homebrewing everything. 4e D&D was a breath of fresh air.
5e seems to have this quality as well. At least, thus far 5e planning has been very straightforward and quick. Now, what is high level 5e going to be like? I don't know, but I'm willing to give it a try. I do not think it will be as involved as 3e, however.
As to why the change? I like playing lots of RPGs and I'm always happy to try something new. So far this campaign is going very well. I'll see how it goes and make a judgement from there, but my main reason for switching to 4e seems to be something that has been replicated.
Fingers crossed!
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
I didn't start in 4e, but it's been my edition of choice for its entire life-cycle, and I have a lot of love for its math chassis, which is kind of a thing of beauty.
For me, 5e has been more open, faster, and less finnicky. 4e had a lot of tiny little moving parts that were sometimes CRAZY important, and each word had to be studied carefully to find both intent and purpose. 5e is looser, more comfortable, less exacting. 5e isn't as philosophically monolithic as 4e was, there's less things that are "wrong to do."
I'm still not entirely clear that 5e can give me the numbers I'm looking for, so while I'm enjoying 5e, I've got some doubts about its adaptability and longevity at this early stage. The DMG didn't exactly give me what I was looking for in that regard.
Accounting for the different ruleset, you can get a lot of the same effects.
Tide of Iron = "I hit the guy and push him back" = Shove + Action Surge (or Extra Attack)
Commander Strike = "I give my attack to someone else" = ....um, the Commander's Strike maneuver.
Wolf Pack Tactics = "I move my ally around" = the Maneuvering Attack maneuver.
Sly Flourish doesn't have an easy analogue thanks to 5e's "realism" (being persuasive and personable doesn't mean that you can stab things better), but its ultimate purpose, to encourage a rogue character to have a high CHA and a high DEX, is largely served in 5e by not having ability scores bear so much weight and by approaching adventures on three pillars (Charisma is an intrinsic reward, and doesn't need extrinsic enhancements).
The above may or may not meet certain players' requirements in certain ways, but they're rough analogues, and achieve many of the same functions, even if not via precisely the same in-game processes that 4e used.
If you're lookin' for low-level one-hit minions, try a few CR 0 critters -- those critters have about 1 hp each, and aren't too hard to use 5-10 at a time.
The lack of low-level combat complexity is totally there, but my impression is that it's intentional -- 5e seems to be making a conscious effort to make level 16 feel a lot different from level 3, and I think part of what's at work there is that a level 3 fight isn't going to be as epic and involved as a high-level fight. Fits with 5e's "zero to hero" track, too.
The trick'll be in finding what the sweet spot is, starting there, and then making that sweet spot last by not giving out XP. It's simple enough, though the DMG doesn't talk much about stuff like "what level must I be at to have an epic encounter?"
For me, 5e has been more open, faster, and less finnicky. 4e had a lot of tiny little moving parts that were sometimes CRAZY important, and each word had to be studied carefully to find both intent and purpose. 5e is looser, more comfortable, less exacting. 5e isn't as philosophically monolithic as 4e was, there's less things that are "wrong to do."
I'm still not entirely clear that 5e can give me the numbers I'm looking for, so while I'm enjoying 5e, I've got some doubts about its adaptability and longevity at this early stage. The DMG didn't exactly give me what I was looking for in that regard.
Accounting for the different ruleset, you can get a lot of the same effects.
Tide of Iron = "I hit the guy and push him back" = Shove + Action Surge (or Extra Attack)
Commander Strike = "I give my attack to someone else" = ....um, the Commander's Strike maneuver.
Wolf Pack Tactics = "I move my ally around" = the Maneuvering Attack maneuver.
Sly Flourish doesn't have an easy analogue thanks to 5e's "realism" (being persuasive and personable doesn't mean that you can stab things better), but its ultimate purpose, to encourage a rogue character to have a high CHA and a high DEX, is largely served in 5e by not having ability scores bear so much weight and by approaching adventures on three pillars (Charisma is an intrinsic reward, and doesn't need extrinsic enhancements).
The above may or may not meet certain players' requirements in certain ways, but they're rough analogues, and achieve many of the same functions, even if not via precisely the same in-game processes that 4e used.
If you're lookin' for low-level one-hit minions, try a few CR 0 critters -- those critters have about 1 hp each, and aren't too hard to use 5-10 at a time.
The lack of low-level combat complexity is totally there, but my impression is that it's intentional -- 5e seems to be making a conscious effort to make level 16 feel a lot different from level 3, and I think part of what's at work there is that a level 3 fight isn't going to be as epic and involved as a high-level fight. Fits with 5e's "zero to hero" track, too.
The trick'll be in finding what the sweet spot is, starting there, and then making that sweet spot last by not giving out XP. It's simple enough, though the DMG doesn't talk much about stuff like "what level must I be at to have an epic encounter?"
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Nebulous
Legend
I imagine that the 5th edition sweet spot is going to be 5th to 12th level. In that 8 levels of play characters will come into their own, reach a height of fame and power before less tested rules and combos come into play. 14th maybe at the max. 15th to 20th I think the game will have problems past editions have. But this is pure speculation. I could be wrong.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
that is great, once per short rest... but again My nephew and neice really liked doing it at will
the problem my more "adult" players have is how few maneuvers you can do... especialy in a fast paced dungeon.
in 4e I could have a dungeon with 3 "Chained" encoutners not giving you even 5 mins for a short rest and you always had a few options... in 5e from what little I've seen accounting for all 3 above examples shows how stretched out the day has to be...
yea, I know WHY they don't have it... but again it was a go to power in 4e...
the problem is a 6, and 8 year old an hour into there first 5e game BOTH figured out with no message boards that fighters, rogues, and warlords(now a subclass) got a lot less options, and some how wizards and clerics and warlocsk got more... and that disappointed them.
Jester David
Hero
Changing crit damage is likely the simplest house rule ever. If they want max damage, just change it to max damage.
Most of those I get but sly flourish. Really? Are we talking about the same sly flourish here?
Didn't they just give you Cha to damage? The awesome power of 2-3 more damage each round. Useful but super boring.
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