4E Poorly Rated on Amazon...

[hong]

Something one should remember when the next time the solution for a rule problem in 4E is DM Fiat, because what is DM Fiat if not another word for "The DM knows the rules and the players don't"?

Pish tosh. This is only a problem if you think too hard about fantasy.

 

[MerricB]

Just found this INTERESTING quote (above) from your blog.

I think I haven't been saying that the 4e DMG is the best DMG ever... (although it's definitely the nicest to new DMs), rather that it is useful to intermediate through experienced DMs as well.

Yes, the other DMGs had two key design philosophies which the 4th Ed. did not:

• Some rules (such as details on magic items) are better left in the DM's hands.

That is actually incorrect. Secrets are very important in 4e; it's just that 4e doesn't make as many things mysterious as previous editions did.

A few examples:
* Tharizdun, "the Chained God", is not described anywhere in the PHB; it's a secret only for the DM's eyes.
* Artefacts and their powers are DM eyes only.
* Puzzles & traps are DM eyes only.
* So are Skill Challenges. Bluffing the Warlord is an automatic fail? Oops. You don't know until you try it.

Meanwhile, 4e designers don't think the DM should remember a lot of "mundane" secrets, like the powers of common magic items. Exceptional items? Sure... but what exactly does keeping what a flaming sword secret or a wand of fireballs net you? Not really all that much - and if you have any number of magic items, that's a lot of extra things to remember when combat is busy enough already.

With regard to special "DM only" additional rules (such as the 1E AD&D DMG rules on spells), they haven't really been part of the game for a long time. Apart from the fact that they work really poorly when you keep adding new spells, from 2E onwards they haven't been used.

• Provide tables and details which a DM can use to turn his own ideas into an adventure or campaign without him/her having to buy anything else. A more experienced DM is much more likely to invent his own... the 4th Ed. DMG would be a poor choice for me to get ideas and building blocks from.

[/QUOTE]

I think you sell the 4E DMG short. It has suggested room types, furnishing & features, traps, details for NPC roles, trades, city sites, outdoor terrain and so on and so forth. I think the AD&D 1E DMG has more for purely dungeons, and the 3E DMG is superior again for actual quantity, but the advice and commentary of the 4E DMG on using those features is extremely valuable.

Cheers!

 

[jdrakeh]

. . . because what is DM Fiat if not another word for "The DM knows the rules and the players don't"?

It's a judgement call and has nothing to do with written rules.

 

[Umbran]

Hong, rounser, The two of you apparently cannot be civil. Don't post in this thread again, please.

 

[Imaro]

It's a judgement call and has nothing to do with written rules.

I think what he is saying is DM fiat is "usuallY' a rule made up on the spot, which players have no prior knowledge of. I disagree that fiat has "nothing to do with written rules", it depends on what is being judged and ruled upon. Not really sure where I stand as far as magic items in DM guide vs. PHB. I think I prefer them in the DMG, but ultimately (like most things people disagree on about 4e) it's a style thing.

I don't want my players getting the impression that they can pick and choose any item on the magic list (and yes it is my preference for the type of games I run), before the decision was by default up to the DM, if he wanted PC's to pick and choose he gave them the list, if not he kept it to himself. In 4e the default is that players do have control over this, adn I feel it is harder to say no, that's not how I'm running my game... than to say yes and hand them the DMG if you want. Again it boils down to different strokes for different folks.

I will say this, I think it is harder to customize when things like this are in the players hands. If I don't want magic items to work like they do in the PHB, it is harder to "unteach" players what they know and instill a new paradigm than to start with the new paradigm as what the PC's are first presented with. YMMV of course.

 

[Mallus]

...because what is DM Fiat if not another word for "The DM knows the rules and the players don't"?

For for starters it's an absence of a formal system of rules and a reliance on negotiation for an hoc task resolution.

ie: something that isn't an algorithm is, in fact, not an algorithm.

 

[Jhaelen]

Reductio ad absurdum. Try again.

Sure! What I was driving at:
Where do you draw the line?
What 'needs' to be kept from the players and what doesn't?

The thing is (and my experience may be different from yours) the players who keep telling me, they'd like the game to be more mysterious are often the first ones who buy the Monster Manuals and adventure modules.

It's really just the casual players who don't care either way who can enjoy the game if they don't know all the rules.

It's also different if it's just a one-shot, e.g. at a convention or the before-mentioned game of Paranoia.

But in every other case players want to know it all.

 

[AllisterH]

I think what he is saying is DM fiat is "usuallY' a rule made up on the spot, which players have no prior knowledge of. I disagree that fiat has "nothing to do with written rules", it depends on what is being judged and ruled upon. Not really sure where I stand as far as magic items in DM guide vs. PHB. I think I prefer them in the DMG, but ultimately (like most things people disagree on about 4e) it's a style thing.

I don't want my players getting the impression that they can pick and choose any item on the magic list (and yes it is my preference for the type of games I run), before the decision was by default up to the DM, if he wanted PC's to pick and choose he gave them the list, if not he kept it to himself. In 4e the default is that players do have control over this, adn I feel it is harder to say no, that's not how I'm running my game... than to say yes and hand them the DMG if you want. Again it boils down to different strokes for different folks.

I will say this, I think it is harder to customize when things like this are in the players hands. If I don't want magic items to work like they do in the PHB, it is harder to "unteach" players what they know and instill a new paradigm than to start with the new paradigm as what the PC's are first presented with. YMMV of course.

But this hasn't been the default position SINCE 3E.

If the item creation feats had been in the DMG, I'd agree with you. However, they weren't and even unlike the Leadership feat which has the "See your DM tag", there was no such restriction on the item creation feats.

The magic items belong in the PHB as long as PCs can create and buy and sell magic items easily.

 

[marv]

Keeping the rules mysterious is the shallowest and most insipid form of mystery you can get.

Hey, thanks! I've never been called such things before. Glad I spent the time composing my thoughts for your constructive feedback. Well done. I see the error in my ways now.

 

[marv]

I think I haven't been saying that the 4e DMG is the best DMG ever...

I know. Just having fun.

That is actually incorrect. Secrets are very important in 4e; it's just that 4e doesn't make as many things mysterious as previous editions did.

I guess it's a question of where to draw the line. I certainly would not go back to the 1st edition model (e.g. those added spell descriptions in the DMG) which created more confusion then needed.

I think you sell the 4E DMG short. It has suggested room types, furnishing & features, traps, details for NPC roles, trades, city sites, outdoor terrain and so on and so forth..

Perhaps. I guess I just felt kind of ripped off. I feel like they phone this one in. They (Hasbro) did such a great job with the 3.5 DMG (the best DMG IMHO, even if you include the Hackmaster GameMaster's Guide, since in my mind Hackmaster was really a derivative of ADnD 2nd Ed.). The 4th Ed DMG is soooo lacking in detail and usefulness to me. Perhaps my opinion will change get experience with 4th Ed, but I doubt it.
Hey MerricB, I really appreciate the sincerity and effort of your responses.