4E Poorly Rated on Amazon...

[The Little Raven]

Keeping the rules mysterious is the shallowest and most insipid form of mystery you can get.

Indeed.

Ignorance and mystery are entirely different.

 

[rounser]

Keeping the rules mysterious is the shallowest and most insipid form of mystery you can get.

Bollocks.

Why should the players know about that artifact you've created? Right, they shouldn't. So it's a surprise and stuff.

Sheesh.

 

[hong]

Bollocks.

Nonsense.

Why should the players know about that artifact you've created? Right, they shouldn't. So it's a surprise and stuff.

I wasn't aware you could get a dozen artifacts by 10th level, in any edition of D&D. Truly, this is a remarkably mysterious world you have created.

 

[jdrakeh]

Keeping the rules mysterious is the shallowest and most insipid form of mystery you can get.

I have to agree, here. Show me a campaign where the only 'mystery' is how the game system works, and I'll show you a campaign with a lot of very frustrated players.

 

[rounser]

I wasn't aware you could get a dozen artifacts by 10th level, in any edition of D&D. Truly, this is a remarkably mysterious world you have created.

Oh, so that's your context for this?:

Keeping the rules mysterious is the shallowest and most insipid form of mystery you can get.

Still bollocks, IMO. What about surprise? What about discovery? You're too far long gone from discovering the game to understand these things? What about games like Paranoia?

Everyone may memorise the magic items and monsters, but it's drawing a long bow not to see what magic items in the PHB are really about: a cynical marketing scheme to sell magic items books to players.

 

[hong]

Oh, so that's your context for this?:

Still bollocks, IMO. What about surprise? What about discovery?

If the only things that can provide surprise and discovery in your game are the properties of magic items, then you run an exceedingly shallow and insipid game.

You're too far long gone from discovering the game to understand these things? What about games like Paranoia?

Okay, now that's funny.

Everyone may memorise the magic items and monsters, but it's drawing a long bow not to see what magic items in the PHB are really about: a cynical marketing scheme to sell magic items books to players.

You say this like it's a negative thing.

 

[rounser]

If the only things that can provide surprise and discovery in your game are the properties of magic items, then you run an exceedingly shallow and inspid game.

What a complete and utter straw man. Many things can add to the feel of a D&D game, like not knowing what a strange monster is, and this is one of them. But no, it's all black and white to you.

To suggest that you should throw the baby out with the bathwater just in case someone, somewhere is using it as a crutch for introducing mystique in their campaign is a gigantic joke of a strawman.

Okay, now that's funny.

Yeah, well, it's like as was pointed out: 4E is a love letter to hardcore gamers. Vorpal swords are about as special to jaded long term players of the game as iron rations are, and taking all the magic out of magic seems almost as if it were a design goal for both Eberron and 4E. No wonder you can't see the problem.

You say this like it's a negative thing.

It will be for you, and your wallet, perhaps, as you try to "complete" the game.

 

[hong]

What a complete and utter straw man. Many things can add to the feel of a D&D game, like not knowing what a strange monster is, and this is one of them.

Indeed it is. It is also the most shallow and insipid way of doing so.

To suggest that you should throw the baby out with the bathwater just in case someone, somewhere is using it as a crutch for introducing mystique in their campaign is a gigantic joke of a strawman.

That someone can continue using it as a crutch all they want. There is nothing that says DMs can't introduce new types of magic items to the game, beyond those featured in the books. If anything, 4E even makes it easier for them to do so, since they no longer have to fiddle with random magic item tables to insert their new items.

Yeah, well, it's like as was pointed out: 4E is a love letter to hardcore gamers. Vorpal swords are about as special to long term players of the game as iron rations are, and taking all the magic out of magic is like a design goal for both Eberron and 4E. No wonder you can't see the problem.

Hey, I'm not the one who introduced Paranoia into the thread.

It will be for you, and your wallet. I'm not getting on that treadmill, though.

So you keep saying.

 

[rounser]

Indeed it is. It is also the most shallow and insipid way of doing so.

Thank you hong, for telling me the delight I experienced when first discovering D&D was badwrongfun. Shallow and insipid fun, in fact.

That someone can continue using it as a crutch all they want. There is nothing that says DMs can't introduce new types of magic items to the game, beyond those featured in the books. If anything, 4E even makes it easier for them to do so, since they no longer have to fiddle with random magic item tables to insert their new items.

But it's a crutch, and it's shallow and insipid, so it's bad and wrong. Clearly they should be prevented from doing so.

I think we should put some errata to that effect in the DMG: "If you do not report the rules for all new magic items to the players upon creation, you are being shallow and insipid, and are clearly incapable of introducing mystique in your campaign world in any other way. Put the books down and back away from the dice."

In fact, let's report all campaign secrets to the players at the outset. Technically, the PCs still don't know, and everyone can feign surprise when they're revealed. That'll be such fun, I can't wait - double immersion roleplaying and we didn't even have to use Hackmaster.

Hey, I'm not the one who introduced Paranoia into the thread.

It's not a black and white thing, though, and you're making it out to be. There's a lot that goes into the feel of a game. Paranoia hides rules because it's funny when the PCs don't know what's going on. D&D can hide rules for a magic item because sometimes it can be more fun to not even know that something exists, let alone have the rules for it in front of you. That's not insipid and shallow, it's actually kind of thrilling and entertaining, like opening a wrapped present.

 

[hong]

Thank you hong, for telling me the delight I experienced when first discovering D&D was badwrongfun. Shallow and insipid fun, in fact.

Of course, you are not "first discovering" D&D anymore. Constantly wanting to do the same thing you did on "first discovering" D&D is indeed rather shallow and insipid.

But it's a crutch, and it's shallow and insipid, so it's bad and wrong. Clearly they should be prevented from doing so.

"Prevent"?

I think we should put some errata to that effect in the DMG: "If you do not report the rules for all new magic items to the players upon creation, you are being shallow and insipid, and are clearly incapable of introducing mystique in your campaign world in any other way. Put the books down and back away from the dice."

While we're going off on tangents which are almost but not quite totally unrelated to the issue at hand, I like peanut butter.

In fact, let's report all campaign secrets to the players at the outset.

Campaign secrets are "rules" now?

It's not a black and white thing, though, and you're making it out to be. There's a lot that goes into the feel of a game. Paranoia hides rules because it's funny when the PCs don't know what's going on. D&D can hide rules for a magic item because sometimes it can be more fun to not even know that something exists, let alone have the rules for it in front of you. That's not insipid and shallow, it's actually kind of thrilling and entertaining, like opening a wrapped present.

No, it's shallow and insipid, like opening the same wrapped present that you opened 20 years ago, and 19 years ago, and 18 years ago, and in fact every year up to the current date.