Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
It's also worth noting that while some may find the 4E DMG useless to veteran gamers, it's likely to be much more useful to newer DMs who, after all, are a population that it only makes sense to encourage.
4E Poorly Rated on Amazon...
- Thread starter scruffygrognard
- Start date
cangrejoide
First Post
Erik Mona said:
All 64 of them?
Come on Erick, its more like 78!!
TheSleepyKing
First Post
Lackhand said:
Honestly, I don't think the early sales figures are indicative of anything other than the strength of the D&D brand. It's the product of a number of fans buying the books sight unseen because it's D&D. The real test of the system's popularity will be how well it's going a year from now, and how well future supplements, splatbooks and adventures sell.
As for the extreme ratings (high and low), it's a phenomenon you find in all Amazon reviews, not just D&D. I suspect that has a lot to do with the desire of people to actually have an influence on the average rating. In effect, it almost works like a Digg or Slashdot system when you "mod up" or "mod down" a product rating by giving it an extreme score. Giving a book a rating that matches the current average seems a little pointless to a lot of people, since that review will just be lost in the morass and will have no impact on the overall score.
cangrejoide
First Post
Scurvy_Platypus said:On the one hand you've got people running around banging their drum about it being on the Amazon Bestseller list. As I'm typing this, it looks like it's ranked #39.
Try to point out that you can stack the odds of your book coming up a best seller, and there's even people that offer to explain _how_ to do it? Somehow the "bestseller" folks manage not to see that.
But now that the rating is negative, you've got folks taking exception to how stuff is done, complaining that it's just a bunch of 4E haters trying to tank it, and so forth.
If you're going to turn around and use Amazon sale ranking to herald a new age of gaming, you should be prepared for someone turning around and slapping you with the other side of 'em.
Of course, the flip side applies as well:
Despite the fact that it's got a 2.5 star rating, it's 39th on the bestseller list. Whoops... I notice it's now at a 3 star rating...
It's also ranked 18 (currently) on the Hot New Releases section.
I don't have a horse in this race. I just think if folks are going to try and bludgeon each other using something like this, realize that it's a knife that cuts both ways.
Yeah, mixed metaphor. Deal with it.
Hmm okay I dont get this..are you saying that being #39 on Amazon's best seller list is a bad thing?
or did I just misread you?
Scurvy_Platypus
Explorer
cangrejoide said:
I dunno. It's a thing. Right now it's at 36.
I think folks are way too worried about whether it's "good" or "bad" and whether someone out there likes it or not.
Play whatever game works for you.
As a hobbyist, I quite frankly don't care. I actually play games _besides_ d20. I know, I know, I should probably be taken out back and shot.
I'll be honest, and let you in on a little secret...
Some of the games I _really_ like? They don't even make the top 1,000,000 in book sales. Check it out:
Talislanta, 4th Edition: 1,239,811
Everstone (BESMd20 variant): 2,013,869
Lone Wolf d20: 1,017,691
Secret of Zir'An: 1,020,158
Monsters and Other Childish Things: 1,806,047
Ninja Burger: 1,462,752
I'm going to be running Witch Hunter: Invisible World for the first time on Sunday. Apparently the system is somewhat like old World of Darkness. I've got no clue if that's good or not, since I've played WW games a grand total of 3 times in my 20 years.
I apparently got lucky in deciding to run this one, as it's soaring head and shoulders above my other games in terms of popularity.
Witch Hunter is currently ranked: #409,093
YEAH BABY!!!!! It's past the half-million mark! w00000000000000!
Look, I get that this is mainly a D&D board. Other d20 stuff gets some play, and then there's everyone else standing around like the homeless.
I really don't get why folks can't just accept that some people like one thing and others don't, and just move on with having fun. It's not like most people have a plethora of people to be playing rpgs with in the first place. Scott Rouse estimated a (possibly inflated by his own admission) worldwide number of D&D players at 6 million.
That's the lion's share of the rpg market right there.
If I were to go by what I see around the forums, I should be having a seizure, and I don't think they make a font big enough for the sort of screaming I should be doing. My game (whatever it is) is "dead", everyone poops on it (if they've even heard of it), Mongoose is doing a whole different version of Lone Wolf... I don't think a fellow could live with the amount of angst I'd have if stuff like popularity and whether or not someone on the internet liked the game were major deciding factors for me.
Face it: We play Invisible Barbie. I really have trouble imagining getting into a fist-fight about whether Barbie is supposed to be called "Drow" (rhymes with "owww" as in pain) or "Drow" (rhymes with bow).
Whether or not my Barbie is called a Half-Orc or a Tiefling? *shrug*
Does my Barbie have to memorize a certain number of spells every day, or does it get to cast some power all day long? *shrug*
Ken is still my bitch, and I'm going to take every dime I can.
I'm in the "oww" group by the way. Not because it really matters to me. It's just how my friends and I decided it made sense. We read that and looked at each other and said, "Anyone got an idea how to say this stupid word?"
We went with "oww" because it sounds like someone getting smacked. The "oh" sound just sounded like some stoner that'd go down like a punk, and while we thought "Drow" was an odd name, we could get behind evil elves.
I'm going to head out now, and finish reading up on some Orders. I've got some monster hunting to prepare for in the glorious year of our lord 1689, and I need to make sure the servants of The Adversary don't go down to the first volley of flintlock fire.
Maybe I'll even be able to get an Aztec sacrifice going....
marv said:
Here's an interesting point: If I remember the designers discussing the DMG correctly, you're not actually meant to take the DMG to sessions. The DMG is almost purely for reference whilst you design adventures.
As to how useful the advice will be after you have read it a few times... well, yes. I do expect it will diminish in usefulness. However, I don't particularly mind this as...
...I'll have already gained use out of the advice (and it will continue to be useful, even if I'm not reading it again), and
...this is really, really good advice for new DMs. With the criticism of how newbie-unfriendly the PHB is, I wonder what Chris Pramas and others think of the DMG?
I'm really thinking of investing in either a colour printer, a laptop, or both.
Stupid? Not really. You must understand that I occasionally approach D&D DMing from a "puzzle/adversarial" direction. The adventure is something the players need to negotiate successfully without aid from the DM. (This happens more when I run dungeoncrawls than story-based adventures, I hasten to add!)
I don't want the players to die or have too easy a job with it, so I'll use any tools I can to set up the challenges and hope that I'll have a good idea of how difficult it will all be. Some challenges will be really hard and they'll need to run, some challenges will be really easy.
However, as a whole, the adventure is achievable. 4e has a very interesting balance point, which you really need to see in play to appreciate. In the 4 combats I've run so far, each has lasted at least 6 rounds, and often one or more PCs have been unconscious and dying at the end - although partly that is due to poor tactics on their part and worse rolling. Still, the combats have felt much better than the very swingy nature of 3e.
You'll have to refresh my memory on these three, as I no longer have the book.
Diseases have a number of "states". If you fail checks, they get worse and worse until they reach a final state which will only improve through healing magic (ritual). (You're blind. Enjoy!)
Artifacts "like" you - they have a rating that changes depending on whether you do things that advance their cause, or if you're troublesome to them. The more they like you, the more powers you have.
Also, Artifacts tend to "move on" after a few levels. The Hand of Vecna is not something you want to move on...
To some extent, I look at this from the point of view of a teacher or D&D evangelist: Is this something that will help new to intermediate DMs? I think it will, and that's something to be thankful for.
Cheers!
cangrejoide
First Post
Scurvy_Platypus said:
But being #36 is good hard factual data of how well it is selling. This is an indicator that it is doing good, and those that like 4E rejoice in the notion that their game line is doing good. A game line doing good means more support and extra goodies. And its also a good counter argument against '1 star' ratings, it just goes to show you that the actual review isn't as honest as it should be. IMHO a game that sells so well should not get 50% '1 star' reviews.
Scurvy_Platypus said:
Yeah we all play different games and it may come as a shock to you but I have played and mostly GMed some of those you mentioned plus a lot more RPgs you didn't mention. But if I understand what you are saying: people are free to play whatever they want? I agree, and someone with an axe to bury should not put a '1star' or a '5 star' review just out of geek fandom. Reviews are there to help people decide if the game is good or not and maybe help the make the desicion to buy it.
By your 'data', you should now know how good 4E has done in sales. By staying above #40 spot for a month now. Thats #40 spot out of millions.
Scurvy_Platypus said:
You are right ENworld is mostly a d20/D&D board, it has been since its start. If you want to discuss other RPGS more broadly you should try www.rpg.net or therpgsite.net or any of the 100s other RPG boards in the intratubes.
Scurvy_Platypus said:
Just because 4E is out doesn't mean your 3.X books will self inmolate. You can still play whatever you want ( like you said earlier). Like everything in life, 'Popularity' is major deciding factor on what stays in the market or not ( remember Beta? Remember the Dreamcast?).
Scurvy_Platypus said:
Okay I am sorry I have not idea what you said in those last paragraphs.
But go on and have fun playing Witch Hunter, and post a play review of your game. Who knows? You may even sell the game to some more people.
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