D&D 4E 4e Races and Classes: "Why we changed the gods"

[Sadrik]

I like the fact that D&D will be paring down the deities. I also like very much the idea of Correllon Larethian become not just an elf god but a general magic god that happens to be an elf (I assume he will still be an elf) that everyone worships. I assume this means that all gods are getting their racial identities stripped. The underlying thrust of that is that it removes racism in a way and cultural divisiveness, which are noble goals in the real world and it is good to see it spill into a game.

This concept was used in Birthright where there were 10 or so gods and each culture had a different name for the deity. (Hmm, but they still had racial deities) Anyway, I liked that concept. Each deity has an aspect that is worshiped by the different cultures and races around the PoL setting.

Also, it sounds like the deities are basically positions and you can go in and challenge for one of their positions and potentially get it? That sounds interesting for high level play. I like it. Have a 30th level party all strive to become deities by replacing the current mix.

Do we have a complete list of the deities yet?

 

[Cadfan]

Ok, what WOTC needs to do to punk all the whiners is this-

First, announce that they've found the space to put the gnome and the druid back into the PHB.

Then, announce that they've dropped the gnome and the druid because, on further thought, non combat related deities are necessary to fully flesh out the game world. The gnome has been dropped in favor of Susan, Goddess of Fertility.

 

[I'm A Banana]

As far as I'm concerned, the PHB needs simply enough gods to facilitate player choice without taking up pages that could be used to better explain the rules. If people are playing DnD, they have a good enough imagination that they can come up with a god of spiderwebs or whatever they need.

I agree the focus needs to be on the players, but I disagree that such a focus necessarily means excluding the world around the players (the world they're going to be saving and adventuring in, after all).

Furthermore, I reject the notion that agricultural gods and doorway gods and peace gods are somehow inherently disagreeable as PC choices.

Given that such gods could be good PC choices, that they ALSO make good NPC choices, enriching the world, AND that going with a big agricultural god, for instance, with areas of control ALSO related to PC interests (for instance, healing, or war) facilitates the 4e design goal of "fewer, more powerful gods," this was a FAILURE OF IMAGINATION.

The 4e team FAILED to IMAGINE how gods of "trivial" things could also be given PC things, thus making them relevant in direct player experience, as well as useful tools for the DM, rather than exclusively one or the other.

It's not a huge deal, it can and shall be fixed pretty easily, but it demonstrates one of the (fairly few) areas where the 4e team's focus on function completely ignored context when it could have been much stronger taking that context into account.

For instance, my God of Agriculture is also my God of War (War to own new lands and farm them, war to feed the fields with fertile blood). My Goddess of Doorways is also my Goddess of Luck (between one world and the other, hoping to start off on the best foot, the liminal state and the possibility of it being good or bad). My God of Love is also my God of Violence(passions, closeness, visceral detail). War and Luck and Violence are all areas that are quite in PC interest, and so now my characters go to war with their shields died green (to bless the ground on which they fall), and they start new adventures with a night of gambling (to get out the bad luck before the cross the doorway of the town), and they fight villains who celebrate their marriages with mass sacrifices, bathing their wedding-bed in blood.

Now, I wouldn't expect WotC to be quite THAT clever with their gods. But at the very slightest, they could do something obvious like a goddess of healing, childbirth, and agriculture (think AE's Greenbonds), a god of death and doorways (between this world and the next!), a goddess of love and protection (defend what you love!), something like that.

And perhaps, since R&C is an early preview, by the time we hit the DMG, they'll have it (and I agree, that would be the perfect place to give it), or at least have tacked on world-building qualities to the PC gods.

But the quoted statement, that gods of agriculture or doorways (or similar "non-adventuring interests") is hard to figure out in an adventuring context, and so should be left aside in favor of deities "designed for play," is entirely ignorant of at least how I play, and represents a pretty dramatic failure of imagination in failing to realize that adventuring interests can easily be tacked onto more substantial deities (and the other way around works, too).

 

[Shroomy]

Do we have a complete list of the deities yet?

We don't have a complete list, but some core deities have been mentioned such as Bane, Bahamut, Pelor, Corellon, and Moradin. Plus some new ones named Zehir and Torog. I'd assume that old favorites like Gruumsh, Tiamat, and Lloth make the list in some fashion.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

I have yet to meet anyone past the age of 14 who actually plays or DMs in the "World of Dungeons and Dragons?", the uncharted, unnamed, undeveloped "world" that all these fluff changes represent. Because the gods of FR, Krynn, Mystara, Midnight, Midkemia, Greyhawk, Earth, Super Mario World, etc. are NOT impacted in any way by a revisioning of who the "core" gods are, I would think that who the "core" god of justice is would be largely irrelevant.

I plan on using the "default" D&D world. From what I've read in R&C, it's got a pretty cool backstory, and I've found that world building is a waste of time for me.

 

[Sadrik]

We don't have a complete list, but some core deities have been mentioned such as Bane, Bahamut, Pelor, Corellon, and Moradin. Plus some new ones named Zehir and Torog. I'd assume that old favorites like Gruumsh, Tiamat, and Lloth make the list in some fashion.

Bane: tyranny
Bahamut: justice and dragons
Pelor: good
Corellon: magic
Moradin: forge
Zehir: ???
Torog: ???

Possible old favorites
Gruumsh: slaughter
Tiamat: chaos and dragons
Lloth: vermin and the underdark

What is missing as far as portfolios and deities to fill them?

 

[Stone Dog]

Pelor is also the Sun God, which means he could easily fill just about everything Apollo ever took charge of.

Zehir has been listed as a god of night, but what that means isn't exactly clear right now.

 

[delericho]

Asmodeus as well, although I'm hoping they change their minds on that one. I don't know what his portfolio was to be, other than Eeeevil.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Bane: tyranny
Bahamut: justice and dragons
Pelor: good
Corellon: magic
Moradin: forge
Zehir: ???
Torog: ???

Possible old favorites
Gruumsh: slaughter
Tiamat: chaos and dragons
Lloth: vermin and the underdark

What is missing as far as portfolios and deities to fill them?

From R&C, Zehir is likened to Set and is a god of night. R&C also says Tiamat is a draconic god of vengence.

Obad-Hai is the forest god. Sehanine is the god of the moon. Ioun is a god of magic/knowledge/etc. Asmodeus is a devil god (I presume a god of treachery and lies), while Tharizdun is a demon god.

The gods are referred to as "immortals" occasionally. For example, R&C mentions that Corellon was the first immortal to venture into the Feywild.

 

[Wormwood]

Do you use modules only?

For 3.5? Definitely.

*If* the promise of fast & easy prep is realized with 4e, I might consider making up my own adventures---buit at the moment I'm planning on using prepared scanarios.

(And yes, most other RPGs I run *are* easier to prep for than 3.5, so I have no problem coming up with my own scenarios [aside from creative block]. Let's hope D&D can catch up.)