D&D 4E [4e] Readied Slow vs. Double Move

[brehobit]

I think the intent is that you can take one move then the next. So in this case, I'd argue that you need not "declare a double move" at the start of your first move action. So yes, I'd let them take the second move of 2.

Mark

 

[Mistwell]

If you have some ability to fly up to an altitude of 100ft, but come crashing down if you exceed 100ft, and another effect allows you to fly 50ft higher than usual, clearly the meaning is that you do not come crashing down until your altitude exceeds the new ceiling.

I have no idea how clear that kind of rule that would be, until we have a rule to look at. We have lots of movement rules already, so I am not sure how productive it would be to make up a new hypothetical rule and then use that hypothetical to prove something concerning an actual rule. Why not focus on the actual rule in this case?

Similarly, if a slowed creature has moved 2 or more square, it must stop. Implicitly, this is because it's used up it's movement for that round. In other words, the rule about stopping if you've moved 2 squares by plain logic becomes a rule that forces you to stop after 4 squares if you can move twice your speed.

I disagree. Cust Serv was aware of the interaction with the Run rules when they tried to answer the question (I can post that part if you want - they had accidentally misread my question), and they still felt that a readied slow effect that hits halts your movement after 2 squares, period. It seems to be an aspect of the Slow effect, and not of your movement for that round or speed.

To argue otherwise is to suggest that the two separate instances of the number '2' are unrelated and not to be conflated in the rules on page 277.

Correct. Apparently they are not related. They wanted a fixed point to make you stop, regardless of your speed or movement or speed+bonus from things like run. It's easier to adjudicate that way, and a lot of 4e sides with "easier to adjudicate" over other issues.

That's not how I read it, and I doubt that's how others do.

Even those who disagree with my view in general on this issue seem to agree with the part that you stop after moving 2, regardless of other factors. As far as I am aware, you are the first to say that "stop moving if you have already moved 2 or more squares" means "stop moving if you have already moved [your speed+bonuses] or more squares. "

If you really want to read the rules to a ridiculously literal level, realize that the rule only requires you to stop if you have already moved 2 or more squares. But what if you're crossing difficult terrain? Apparently you get to move 2 squares regardless of terrain... Or what if you're falling? Whew, lucky you, you stop after falling the first two squares.

I do not find it ridiculous, nor overly literal. I think they made that the rule for ease of play.

In addition to the fact that the rules for slow clearly only stop you after 2 squares since your new speed is 2 (thus clarifying that if you declare 6 squares of movement but are slowed half-way, you new speed kicks in immediately irrespective of your original intent), you'd also be permitted to take a second move action despite the double move rule. The actual rules block on double move does not force you to use it.

Yes, it does. If you make two consecutive moves, you have made (or attempted) a double move. Hyp just quoted that language. It does seem to force you.

Furthermore, it clearly does not consider (and thus does not apply to) interrupted moves. As a general principle, moves in D&D seem to be resolved square-by-square, and it is thus not necessary (nor for that matter possible) to fix in stone your movement more than a square in advance. This is not stated in the rules in such a form, but CS has confirmed it, and assuming the contrary leads to weirdness in the event of interrupted moves due to OA's and readied actions, to say nothing of the many immediate reactions and interrupts.

Actually, as I posted in the original post, Customer Service answered with a "huh, good question, we do not know, it's up to your DM until our rules guy decides to make it into a FAQ or Errata or other official item". So yes, it seems the rules folks did not consider it, but it's not at all clear how the situation should be handled (if it were, I think they would have answered the question).

So you can both resume a stopped move by moving again (see for instance combat superiority) since you are not forced to use the double move action, and further, when slowed you need to stop after moving 2 squares by reason that that is your speed, and thus anything affecting that reason affects the conclusion.

I disagree on both points. It says you must use the double move if you do two moves in a row, stopping would by definition eliminate the benefits of a double move (it says so in the double move text - it's why you can bypass some difficult terrain and have the first move "end" in an occupied square, because you do not actually stop), and it is not based on your speed or speed + bonuses (CS already knew of the Run rules interaction and still rules you stop after 2 squares).

 

[Mistwell]

I think the intent is that you can take one move then the next. So in this case, I'd argue that you need not "declare a double move" at the start of your first move action. So yes, I'd let them take the second move of 2.

Mark

Well, your answer is similar to several others, so I'd really like to hear how you deal with the obvious complexities of such a ruling.

If you were stopped in an occupied square with your first move, you've clearly broken the movement rules. This issue is called out in the double move text (you gain an exception to that rule if you double move, because you do not stop with a double move). How is your interpretation compatible with that issue?

Similarly, you can sometimes move through more difficult terrain with a double move, again because (as the double move text says) you do not actually stop with a double move. How is your interpretation, which allows for a stop, compatible with that issue?

Finally, the language of Double Move says "One Speed: When you double move, add the speeds of the two move actions together and then move." Why would you add speeds first, and then move, if they meant you can decide half-way through actually moving if you want to double move or not?

A slow effect stops your movement. Stopping movement is not compatible with several aspects of a double move, and the language of double move does not lend support deciding later if you will move twice. How are all of those issues dealt with under your interpretation?

 

[DracoSuave]

It's actually really simple. If you've got a fraction of your move left, like, you've only got one square and you want to enter into difficult terrain., the only way to do it is to start your second move action. -That- is the decision point for the double move. You don't decide to take the double move until you can't -not- take the double move. It's really simple.

Why it all has to be declared in advance is beyond me. It's over complication. You don't declare stuff until you start doing it, really.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I've seen nothng in 4e to make declaring whole round's worth of actions required. If you're moving, a ready can go off any time you've entered a square that entering triggers the ready. The ready is an immediate reaction, so it happens after you enter that square - you're in the square, there's not going to be any re-winding, but you can be suddenly out of movement if you've moved more than your speed.

If you're slowed after moving more than one square, you're done moving. If you're slowed after moving more than 3, you're done with that move, even if you run. But, you're not into 'double move' territory until you actually start that second move. Say you've used up all but one of your first move action of movement going up to the edge of a web spell. You can't enter it, without starting a second move - but if you do, you do get to use the last square of your first move and 1 square of your next to enter that first square. Say you do so, and that triggers a readied ray of frost, slowing you. Now, you've got only one square of movement left, since your speed is 2, and you've used 1 of it. You can't go deeper into the web, but you can back out of it, since entering a clear square is only 1 square of movement.

 

[Hypersmurf]

-That- is the decision point for the double move.

Except that Double Move says to add the speeds together, and then move.

The decision point is before you move, because otherwise you've applied the Double Move out of order - you moved before adding the speeds together.

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

I've seen nothng in 4e to make declaring whole round's worth of actions required.

Nobody is saying you have to declare a whole round's actions in advance. I am saying that, to make a double move action (which is a single action that costs your standard and move actions to do it), it says "One Speed: When you double move, add the speeds of the two move actions together and then move". And just to be clear, the rules repeat that same rule again later, "When you double move, you can sometimes move over more squares of difficult terrain than normal, because you add the speeds of the two move actions together and then move."

If an effect stops that movement, that double move action is done. You still have your minor actions and free actions and action point actions and such left. It's not an entire rounds worth of actions.

If you're moving, a ready can go off any time you've entered a square that entering triggers the ready. The ready is an immediate reaction, so it happens after you enter that square - you're in the square, there's not going to be any re-winding, but you can be suddenly out of movement if you've moved more than your speed.

Immediate reaction makes an exception for movement actually: "except that you can interrupt a creature’s movement. If a creature triggers your immediate reaction while moving (by coming into range, for example), you take your action before the creature finishes moving but after it has moved at least 1 square."

If you're slowed after moving more than one square, you're done moving. If you're slowed after moving more than 3, you're done with that move, even if you run. But, you're not into 'double move' territory until you actually start that second move.

It's one speed, not two, and you first "add the speeds of the two move actions together and then move".

It also talks about how a double move cannot involve stopping, but you just stopped. The rule says you get the double move benefit "because you’re not stopping."

In fact, all advantages of a double move for terrain and occupying an occupied space all depend on the stated assumption that you do not stop during a double move - and yet you just stopped because of the slow effect.

 

[eamon]

Except that Double Move says to add the speeds together, and then move.

The decision point is before you move, because otherwise you've applied the Double Move out of order - you moved before adding the speeds together.

I'd say the decision point is the moment you move into the first square you couldn't have moved to with a single move.

Anyhow, the double move blurb doesn't require you to use it to make two moves. That's the descriptive text, and from a descriptive point of view it makes perfect sense to describe making two consecutive moves as a double move since that's the usual case. Of course, when you cannot make two non-stop moves, you can't double move - but that doesn't prevent you from moving again.

 

[eamon]

Correct. Apparently they are not related. They wanted a fixed point to make you stop, regardless of your speed or movement or speed+bonus from things like run. It's easier to adjudicate that way, and a lot of 4e sides with "easier to adjudicate" over other issues.

If you feel the two are unrelated, then that's certainly the way to go. I don't think they are, and further that there's a clear causality: you stop after two squares because your speed. In any case, apparently we agree on the reasoning, but not the premise...

Even those who disagree with my view in general on this issue seem to agree with the part that you stop after moving 2, regardless of other factors. As far as I am aware, you are the first to say that "stop moving if you have already moved 2 or more squares" means "stop moving if you have already moved [your speed+bonuses] or more squares. "

Bonuses in general don't apply, so in general your speed+bonuses is simply 2 and you'll stop after 2 squares. In the specific case of double move, however, you're capable of moving more.

(Concerning the application of slow's stopping phrase to difficult terrain and falling scenario's, amongst other things):

I do not find it ridiculous, nor overly literal. I think they made that the rule for ease of play.

I think you're losing sight of the forest for the tree's here. What is slow modelling? The rules serve the purposes of consistency, not the other way around. If a creature moves only at a rate of 2 squares per move, of course it needs to stop after two squares. But it's still normal movement and common sense still applies. You stop after 1 square if you're moving over difficult terrain, you don't stop if you're falling, etc... The point of the reminder that you stop once you've moved 2 squares is to make clear that the speed limit applies immediately, not after the current move action. But again, you think the stopping clause is unrelated to the speed limiting clause, whereas I think they're causally related, which explains the essence of our differences, right?

Yes, it does. If you make two consecutive moves, you have made (or attempted) a double move. Hyp just quoted that language. It does seem to force you.

Hyp didn't quote rules text, but the flavor text preceding it.

Actually, as I posted in the original post, Customer Service answered with a "huh, good question, we do not know, it's up to your DM until our rules guy decides to make it into a FAQ or Errata or other official item". So yes, it seems the rules folks did not consider it, but it's not at all clear how the situation should be handled (if it were, I think they would have answered the question).

I agree that the rules do not explicitly cover the situation.

I disagree on both points. It says you must use the double move if you do two moves in a row, stopping would by definition eliminate the benefits of a double move (it says so in the double move text - it's why you can bypass some difficult terrain and have the first move "end" in an occupied square, because you do not actually stop), and it is not based on your speed or speed + bonuses (CS already knew of the Run rules interaction and still rules you stop after 2 squares).

The specific example of combat superiority is simply stated directly in the rules. If you do stop in the middle, of course you lose the benefits of double move - but you can, that's all.

 

[Tony Vargas]

In fact, all advantages of a double move for terrain and occupying an occupied space all depend on the stated assumption that you do not stop during a double move - and yet you just stopped because of the slow effect.

I think the point here is that you can 'double move' or just take 2 move actions, and it makes no sense for you to have to decide between one or the other before you've moved at all, or, for that matter, before you've gone as far as you can with that first move, by itself. Sure, the 'double move' action is totalled up, but if it becomes a declared action, it leads to absurdity, where a character loses his standard action because the first part of his movement changes the situation some how. That seems entirely out of line for 4e. The implications of declared actions go beyond the scope of what the 'double move' entry addresses, so I'm unwilling to assume 'double move' is meant to create a de-facto declared action rule in a system that is not suited to such a thing, at all.