D&D 4E 4E requisites

[gribble]

Well, to me it won't be about the features of a 4e, but more about the adoption. Two things made me upgrade to 3.5:
1) the fact that Eberron, and the all interesting new 3rd party and WotC adventures/suppliments used the ruleset.
2) The fact that my regular gaming group upgraded.

To me it's about that, plain and simple. No matter how good 4e is (and I personally think it'll be hard to improve substantially on 3.5), I'll most likely keep playing 3.5 until these factors make me change.

 

[Greg K]

Some of the things that would be necessary to get me to look at 4e:

1. Fewer absolutes (as per SKR's web article):

2. Less Reliance on Magic items including adding class defensive bonus that works with armor.

3. Add Medium Save bonus.

4. Slower Advancement from levels 5-20

5. With regards to the racial names and greyhawk references in the PHB, either move them to an appendix in the PHB as sample setting or move the material to the DMG as an example of campaign building.

6. Races:
Seperate race into race and background/culture.

Race should only provide inborn abilities- stat bonuses/s, save bonus, darkvision, nightvision, and other factors due to racial factors

Background/ Culture provides learned abilities such as racial weapon familiarity,skill bonus, combat bonuses vs. certain races, stonecunning, bonus languages etc. Depending on the campaign, culture might limit starting class choices and may provide alternative class features.

Possible options for background/culture: Arctic, Cave, Coastal, Desert, Forest, Island, Jungle/rainforest, Marsh/Swamp, Mountain, Noble, Nomad, Rural (farmer/herder), Street, Urban,

7. Classes:
I want several classes with sample variants as per Unearthed Arcana

A. Pure Spellcasters (low BAB, light or no armor, d4 or d6 hit die, Good Will Save)
Animist (nature caster) (druid renamed)
Cleric (divine caster)
Priest (scholarly divine caster)
Shaman (spirit/totem caster)
Sorcerer ( untrained inborn Arcane caster)
----variant: Celestial Blood
----variant: Draconic Blood
----variant: Fey Blood
Witch
Wizard (Scholarly Arcane caster)
Wizard, Specialists: using the UA variant abilities


B. Non-Spellcasting Classes
Berserker: 3.x Barbarian ( Note: inclusion of this class is if rage does not become a feat chain)
----variant: Urban Berserker
Fighter
----variant: Thug (PHB/UA)
Hunter: Barbarian Hunter (UA)
Martial Artist: non ki-based unarmed fighting specialist
Rogue
----variant: Martial Rogue (UA)
----variant: Wilderness Rogue (UA)
----note: options to trapfinding/trapsense for those non-dungeon delving or burglar rogues


C. Martial/Spellcasting Hybrid Classes*
Dabbler (Rogue/ Wizard)
----variant Beguiler
Holy Warrior (Fighter/Cleric)
Monk (spellcasting Martial Artist)
----variant: Arcane Monk (Arcane/Martial Artist)
----variant: Divine Monk (Divine/Martial Artist)
----variant: Nature Monk (Animist/Martial Artist)
----variant: Spirit Monk (Shaman/Martial Artist)
Ranger (Animist/Hunter)*
----variant: Urban Ranger
Warrior Mage (Fighter/Wizard)*: More like AEG"s Myrmidon rather than duskblade/Spellsword

* 0 level spells at first level, 1st level spells at 2nd level, new spell level every 4 levels thereafter. Caster level=class level

8. Skills:
I don't want to see a reduction or collapsing in skills. However, I would like to see classes get more skill points.

9. Feats
use the d20Modern Brawl, Combat MA, Defensive MA feat trees

10. Equipment
Include the missing armor and weapon types from earlier editions that were reintroduced in Arms and Equipment (My preference would be to pull out from the alchemical items and the new weapons created for 3.X (e.g., spiked chain) and reintroduce them in another supplement).

11. NPC Classes: Commoner, Craftsman, Performer, Professionals.

12. Psionics *not*core.

13. Magic: I would love to see Vancian Magic go bye-bye.

14. Classes and Level: I don't mind keeping class and level. However, I want classes to have less set carrots at each level and more customization choices for player/DMs.

15. I agree with those saying to get rid of the wealth per level.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I believe that 4E must include class bonuses to AC.

Low levels should not be suicidal.

A much lower reliance on magic items.

Clerics should be able to heal in combat without losing too many actions.

4E must fix the wonderfully-innovative-but-still-not-perfect LA/ECL/CR difficulties that plague 3E.

A range of base classes for each "party role," i.e. skill-user, combatant, spell-user should be included and these must be genuinely different from one another. Skill users must be made more fun and useful.

I would like to see a stable, thoroughly playtested psionics system in its own book.

The core rules should be divorced from any particular campaign setting.

Greater transparency in the rules would facilitate the kind of customization that makes the game so rich.

Tweak the grapple rules, AoO rules, troublesome spells, etc.

Rewrite the paladin's code and the whole monk class.

Remove magic from classes that don't need it (eg the ranger).

Things to keep:

Classes

Levels

Hit Points

Races

Templates (they don't have to just be for creatures anymore)

Types

Challenge Ratings

Difficulty Classes/Skills

Feats or something like them

 

[Lanefan]

First off, to those who didn't like my earlier list of ideas very much, no worries.

What I was trying to get at, in the main, was that there were some very good and useful game mechanics in the earlier editions that got thrown out in 3e, done - it largely appears - in the name of over-simplicity. That said, there were some awful mechanics in earlier editions that also got thrown out...

Subsequent posts have reminded me of a few more ideas I had, some in agreement with said posts...

- Grapple has always been a headache. Despite what I've said here and elsewhere, this might be a good candidate for severe simplification, if only to make it useful.
- The DR mechanic is one 3e development I rather like; keep it. Keep it simple, but keep it.
- Keep, in general: classes, hit points, levels, etc.
- Spells need almost a complete re-do...some specifics:
--- there are too many buff spells; limits on spell damage dice seem unnecessarily arbitrary; spells should be less "automatic" (e.g. roll to hit for anything requiring aim such as fireball, lightning bolt, etc.) with a serious miss potentially dangerous to the party; illusions should be able to fool *all* the senses including touch, meaning they can do damage; expanding fireballs and rebounding lightning bolts are just plain *fun*; etc., etc.
- Flanking is a fine mechanic, keep it.
- Wealth by level table is a bad idea, lose it.
- Wealth by town table is a bad idea, replace with a genearl vague guideline at most.
- CR/EL is only useful if you're new to DM'ing; with any experience, a DM knows what to throw at a party. So, keep it *only* as a guide or training tool.
- Have an iconic setting (Greyhawk? Mystara?) that the rules can reference, much like the iconic characters (Tordek, Mialee, etc.) 3e uses.
- AoO is a good idea, though overdone, but I'm not sure if there's a way to simplify it without making it useless.
- I like the idea of "wild" psyonics; something you're born with whether you train in it or not, such as in the Kurtz or Jordan books.
- I've never seen the point of the Barbarian class in any edition. However, Barbarian as a race (sub-race of Human) holds merit.
- Wild or unpredictable magic is always fun. They sort-of approached it in 2e but if it's shown up in 3e I missed it.

No doubt there'll be more to this later...

Lanefan