• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 4E 4E: The day the game ate the roleplayer?

johan_seraphim

First Post
I personally believe that all 4th edition is trying to do is keep up with WoW. We have a generation of fantasy roleplayers (or ROLL-players if you prefer) who have grown up playing nothing but Everquest, WoW, Diablo and the such. In those games, you really don't need to roleplay (their might be some exceptions) so much as be part of a unit and do your job. I see that this is where 4th edition is headed....






Not that I won't purchase it anyway :p
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Seule

Explorer
johan_seraphim said:
I personally believe that all 4th edition is trying to do is keep up with WoW. We have a generation of fantasy roleplayers (or ROLL-players if you prefer) who have grown up playing nothing but Everquest, WoW, Diablo and the such. In those games, you really don't need to roleplay (their might be some exceptions) so much as be part of a unit and do your job. I see that this is where 4th edition is headed....

I find this an amusing contrast to this thread: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=220605 which has some people positing, basically, that the game is going too far away from defining things and letting pure roleplaying take over to the detriment of the game.

It certainly talks about mechanics that are about as far from a computer game as you can get.

--Penn
 

johan_seraphim

First Post
From everything I've read (only here mind you) it just really seems like WoTC is trying to make a "copy" of WoW and Japanese Manga to attract those customers.


Godarmor???? Seriously??
 

tsadkiel

Legend
johan_seraphim said:
I personally believe that all 4th edition is trying to do is keep up with WoW. We have a generation of fantasy roleplayers (or ROLL-players if you prefer) who have grown up playing nothing but Everquest, WoW, Diablo and the such. In those games, you really don't need to roleplay (their might be some exceptions) so much as be part of a unit and do your job. I see that this is where 4th edition is headed....

Speaking as a teacher, no we don't. We have a generation of fantasy roleplayers who grew up reading Harry Potter and the Spiderwick Chronicles and A Series of Unfortunate Events and Tolkein and Lewis and Tamora Pierce and a million young Obi Wan and Captain Jack Sparrow books and nearly anything else they can get their hands on. The kids are, in fact, okay - they're every bit as smart and literate as we were at that age, and while yes, many of them also grew up playing video games, so did I. They just have better graphics than my Vic20.
 

johan_seraphim

First Post
tsadkiel said:
Speaking as a teacher, no we don't. We have a generation of fantasy roleplayers who grew up reading Harry Potter and the Spiderwick Chronicles and A Series of Unfortunate Events and Tolkein and Lewis and Tamora Pierce and a million young Obi Wan and Captain Jack Sparrow books and nearly anything else they can get their hands on. The kids are, in fact, okay - they're every bit as smart and literate as we were at that age, and while yes, many of them also grew up playing video games, so did I. They just have better graphics than my Vic20.


Okay, yeah you got me there..... :p :p
 

Incenjucar

Legend
johan_seraphim said:
From everything I've read (only here mind you) it just really seems like WoTC is trying to make a "copy" of WoW and Japanese Manga to attract those customers.


Godarmor???? Seriously??

The funny thing is, I bet people wouldn't spaz as much over something called "Armor of the Gods"
 

RandomCitizenX

First Post
tsadkiel said:
Speaking as a teacher, no we don't. We have a generation of fantasy roleplayers who grew up reading Harry Potter and the Spiderwick Chronicles and A Series of Unfortunate Events and Tolkein and Lewis and Tamora Pierce and a million young Obi Wan and Captain Jack Sparrow books and nearly anything else they can get their hands on. The kids are, in fact, okay - they're every bit as smart and literate as we were at that age, and while yes, many of them also grew up playing video games, so did I. They just have better graphics than my Vic20.

very well stated. I applaud you.
 

Saishu_Heiki

First Post
tsadkiel said:
Speaking as a teacher, no we don't. We have a generation of fantasy roleplayers who grew up reading Harry Potter and the Spiderwick Chronicles and A Series of Unfortunate Events and Tolkein and Lewis and Tamora Pierce and a million young Obi Wan and Captain Jack Sparrow books and nearly anything else they can get their hands on. The kids are, in fact, okay - they're every bit as smart and literate as we were at that age, and while yes, many of them also grew up playing video games, so did I. They just have better graphics than my Vic20.
Thank you.

I have been trying to come up with a way to say exactly this for weeks, but lacked the intimate knowledge that you seem to have as a teacher (I guess computer engineering doesn't give the same skill set... :) ).

In all the games I have run, in all the states, in all the game stores, the biggest hurdle for younger players entering the game was never a lack of appreciation or knowledge of fantasy... it was always the grumpy, disenchanted old guard trying to keep the "worthless kids" from taking over "their" game. It always struck me as sad, especially when a player that had real potential dropped the game because he was tired of being picked on at the table (they get enough of that at school).
 

johan_seraphim

First Post
Incenjucar said:
The funny thing is, I bet people wouldn't spaz as much over something called "Armor of the Gods"


Actually, I think people are just spazzing over the fact that Mythral and Adamantine armor is gone and replaced with something more copyrightable.
 

Derro

First Post
Hussar said:
Ahh, man, my Dragon magazines are ALL the way on the other side of the room and I'm too lazy to go paw through them to find the right issue. Needless to say, a couple of years ago, Dragon published the results of their reader poll and compared it to a similar poll a few years previously. Their latest poll showed Dragon readers to be about 22 years old, and about 5 % female.

Take it all with a grain of salt of course. The point is, D&D gamers are not the greying greybeards that a lot of people seem to think. And MMORPG gamers are not all children either.

Grain of salt taken.

Neither I nor any of my fellow gamers in my immediate or even once removed circle of gamers are avid readers of Dragon or takers of Dragon reader's polls. At the three gaming events that I have put on myself and the multitude I've attended (multitude of maybe 10) in the last 6 years I'd say the average ages were decidedly close to my own (currently 31). Everybody I regularly game with is within 4 years of my age (me being the second youngest). Almost all of us play computer or console based games but none of us cut our teeth on them.

I don't know that the there is a perception that PnP gamers are greybeards. I've been known to wear a beard and I am getting a bit grey. I think a man on the street poll would reveal that most of the games people play are computer-based these days. And most of those players are probably in the younger age demographic.

I think WotC has to appeal to the younger demographic because a) they are the group with collectively the most disposable income b) they have less exposure to previous editions to color their expectations of the game and c) will have less loyalty to other games due to less exposure.

I think many of WotC design principles are derived not only with the play of the game in mind but also the familiarity to the concepts. Concepts beyond the most basic in RPGs (this is a character sheet, these are dice, this is what THACO does... :D ) I can't fault that from a marketing perspective, you need to stay ahead of the demographic to maintain a viable brand. But it is revealing as to why many older gamers assert that the game has a video-gamey feel. Computer based games have become the average as opposed to the exception and it is irksome (to me) that the game we've grown up playing is taking on the traits of games that are derivative of said game. I'd say there's a perception of dilution of the original game that probably doesn't sit well with us old-timers.

If we could look at an analogy from the other side of the coin. Could you imagine the immense commercial failure and general market disgust if WoW required its players to engage in role-playing, if RP servers were the standard and not the anomaly of game-play. Immense blocks of florid text taking the place of PvP and huge multi-player raiding parties. I know, it's a silly analogy, but it is seeing the current situation through the looking glass.

I'm not a 4e hater. I like many of the design elements. But I'm probably not going to purchase it myself. WotC has diluted their brand loyalty in an effort to cultivate a wider, younger demographic. I think we saw this with 3e as well but that was 8 years ago when the viable gaming market was neither as widespread or as diverse as it is today.

Look at D&D (1972) and D&D (2008). Which one is closer in concept and execution to a computer game? The evolution of game design? Most definitely. The homogenization of PnP and CRPG? Depends who you ask. Either way PnP loses out as its distinct qualities slowly blend with the qualities that have a larger mass appeal.

But such is the nature of evolution and the unseen hand of the market. Appeal to the broadest spectrum or provide something to a niche that you and you alone produce. Option two is just not possible.

If any of this seems loaded or provokes you to frothing rage with its unabashed audacity just remember I'm only expressing my opinion. WotC not going to suddenly stop production of 4e. I'm not gonna come over to your house and confiscate your dice. It's your game, do what you want. Just be aware of the big picture. It's a market entity. It needs to eat. Your time and money are its sustenance.
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top