D&D 4E 4e, The economy fixed??

[PeelSeel2]

I know I was really disappointed in how 4e 'fixed' the economy for all levels of D&D. They went to a totally gamist view on it to make it work. It destroyed my perception of a 'Fantasy' economy. I did not like it. Nor did my players. Looking at the Adventurer's Vault, especially alchemical items, it seemed beyond belief the 'prices' of these items, even for a fantasy economy. It was actually maddening to me. The fix they had was balanced unto itself without regard to the perception of how a fantasy economy should operate.

Lately I have been reading and playing Moldvay/Cook D&D/LL, and really like the encumbrance rules. It was the idea it is not only the weight of an item, but its bulk and hindrance on movement all wrapped into the encumbrance values of items. A very gamist solution to the problem of carry crap in a game.

I have had an epiphany on the new 4e economy. The gp value of items does no represent the true value of the item, rather it is the monetary value, rarity in the market, ease of manufacture, and marketability all wrapped into a value. I have totally changed my perception on what the gp represents in 4e. It is not a monetary value. It is an abstract value of all the above. I am now calling them 'wealth points' instead of gp, and using the system 'as-is'.

For me, this change in perception really helped me. I offer it to you if it helps in your perception.

 

[DracoSuave]

When D&D -doesn't- have a gamist approach to wealth and the economy, please let me know. D&D3e had a truly gamist approach and wrapped it in simulationist mumbo jumbo which wasn't actually realistic. D&D4e just sits down and admits what it is.

It's an attempt to tell a story, not an attempt to rationalise 'gamism' (which is actually narrativism) with handwaving the way 1e, 2e, and 3e have all attempted to do. 4e finally sits down and says:


"You know what, find a storyline reason why your character can get what he wants because frankly, that's what's going to happen anyways. So don't hide behind economics (that don't work like economics) and treasure tables, because dungeon-based economies are not realistic when it comes to the economy a kingdom. Instead, accept the fact that most players don't know anything about how an economy really works, and instead tell a damn story.

"Every rule here is for telling a story. If your story requires a simulation of a world economy, and that's fun for you and your players, then go ahead and do it. You don't need an rpg book to do that. If you do, you're probably not knowledgable enough in the field to notice if it was accurate, so no book is really going to help you either."

 

[Mort_Q]

4e finally sits down and says:


"You know what, find a storyline reason why your character can get what he wants because frankly, that's what's going to happen anyways. So don't hide behind economics (that don't work like economics) and treasure tables, because dungeon-based economies are not realistic when it comes to the economy a kingdom. Instead, accept the fact that most players don't know anything about how an economy really works, and instead tell a damn story.

"Every rule here is for telling a story. If your story requires a simulation of a world economy, and that's fun for you and your players, then go ahead and do it. You don't need an rpg book to do that. If you do, you're probably not knowledgable enough in the field to notice if it was accurate, so no book is really going to help you either."

Works for me.

 

[ppaladin123]

The gp value of items does no represent the true value of the item, rather it is the monetary value, rarity in the market, ease of manufacture, and marketability all wrapped into a value.

Supply and Demand. Yes...this is how economists think of value.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

<snip>

I have had an epiphany on the new 4e economy. The gp value of items does no represent the true value of the item, rather it is the monetary value, rarity in the market, ease of manufacture, and marketability all wrapped into a value. I have totally changed my perception on what the gp represents in 4e. It is not a monetary value. It is an abstract value of all the above. I am now calling them 'wealth points' instead of gp, and using the system 'as-is'.

For me, this change in perception really helped me. I offer it to you if it helps in your perception.

Please don't read this as snarky, it's not intended to be. I'm just pointing out what I see as flaws in your statements, nothing personal.

"Rarity in the market, ease of manufacture, and marketability" - that's what actually comprise the monetary value of an item in the real world economy (ie - that thing that you want 4e's economy to approximate). That is the definition of value in an economy, it isn't just what it the raw materials cost to produce the item. Raw material cost + time and skill required to manufacture + rarity + demand = a price in a 'real' economy. I'm not exactly sure what you are thinking 'price' and 'value' are determined by.

I just find it interesting that what is essentially being said is, "the given market prices in 4e represent the market prices of these items," and then the suggestion to rename gp to 'wealth points'. Gold pieces are currency, and currency is a standard of wealth. So basically all you've suggested is giving gold pieces a fancy name. Please, if I'm missing something, point it out, because that seems a little convoluted.

A little thought exercise: given the proper cost for materials, supply & demand of the skill needed to manufacture, and supply & demand for finished product, any currency amount is plausible as the cost for an item. The only reason people say that the pricing scheme of RPGs aren't accurate is because they don't line up with their assumptions as to the values of those three (or 5, depending on your perspective) things. For example, the alchemical items you spoke of: if you assume that no one wants them, alchemists (skilled labour) are all over the place (flooding the market with alchemical items), and materials are cheap, the 'price' for those items will be low. Conversely, if alchemists are very rare (low supply), and materials are very expensive, then the price skyrockets. Any price is plausible if your assumptions go in the right direction. If, all of a sudden, EVERYONE ON THE PLANET NEEDS A TOWEL NOW!!! (caps to emphasize the urgency of the demand ), and they cannot wait until tomorrow, the price of towels will skyrocket. If demand stays that far above supply, the price will stay high, until demand goes down or supply catches up. Simple econ, people

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Exactly. Any price is possible. A lot of the variables are not explained by the book. Depending on what those variables are, the economy could be correct...or close to correct.

On the other hand a "truly" realistic economy ends up with weapons that do 1d4 damage with a prof bonus of +2 costing 1.2 million gold pieces because they are made of a material that is nearly impossible to come by. While such an item is utterly useless for the characters in the game. Meanwhile, they can acquire items that let them do super extraordinary things for 10 gp because of how few people in the world want them and have the money to afford them.

 

[Thanee]

Looking at the Adventurer's Vault, especially alchemical items, it seemed beyond belief the 'prices' of these items, even for a fantasy economy.

Have you ever looked at ebay? Madness for real!

Bye
Thanee

 

[DracoSuave]

Personally I think +1 magic weapons/armor/etc should be worth a lot more than 360gp, because adventurers never get their hands on one by the treasure tables, and enchanting one requires a level too high for a simple +1 weapon to be useful compared to a +1 with a property, or a +2.

I swear, one of these days I will make a character that collects +1 magic items due to this rarity.

 

[James McMurray]

Magic + Elves + Dragons = who cares about macroeconomics.

That's an equation that's worked for me for 20 years.

 

[Harr]

Look at this.

It's a marble. Just a glass marble. People bid $4,350 on it. Guy didn't sell it. He wants $9,000 for it. Realistic? You betcha. Stuff like this goes on every day.

That's the thing with the people who cry foul with D&D's supposed economic system, about how the buying or selling prices aren't realistic. Almost without exception, they think they know what they are talking about, but they do not. Almost without exception they just focus on how hard or expensive an item is to make, and totally ignore the stuff like how much do other people actually want to buy the thing, or how much do other people want to buy the thing from you.

Now, you can say that in general D&D does not have a working economic model and you'd be right. BUT, once you point at a specific item and a specific price, and say "that item in specific is unrealistic with that price", you've fallen off the boat. The item can easily have that price, or whatever price and still be totally realistic. It just has to be rarer and in more demand that the cheaper ones.

Similarly... if you say "It's unrealistic that I can't sell this item above 20% of what i got it from", bam, once again you fell off the boat. Who said anybody anywhere was looking to buy that item from you? Especially when they've got a well-known, dependable, reputable local magic store owner to buy from? And so on, and so forth... these types of complaints are always in the head of whoever makes them.

Anyway, to the OP, I'm glad you found a way to reconcile it so that you can enjoy it. That's what it's all about.