D&D 4E 4e, The economy fixed??

[Melfast]

The Economy -- Problem for Me is Market for Created Items

The pricing in the DND economy does not bother me. Generally, as a DM I control balance through controlling supply rather than price.

The problem I am having with the 4e economy is the price to make versus the price to sell. (I'm sorry if I'm going over ground beat to death elsewhere in a thread.)

The cost to make a magic item using the enchant item ritual is exactly the same as its market price. So, whether I make it or buy it, it costs the same. I can accept that, except there is no way someone going to make items and sell them for the cost of manufacture.

Similarly, a player can make their own mundane weapons and armor, for exactly the cost of buying it. So, if I go buy a forge, tools, etc., I can make my own sword and it will cost me the same as buying it, and I've also paid for all the overhead and equipment to manufacture it.

I understand this is for play balance, so PC's don't sit around making money buy through the unheroic practice of being merchants or manufacturers, but it just does not make any sense.

How to NPC's do it? Presumably, they have advantages PC's don't that allow them to reduce the cost of production: sunk cost of equipment needed to manufacture items (that anvil has probably been in the family for years), locals-discount supply agreements, longer time available to make items (allowing the work to be done when convenient/down-time), etc. However, it still does not look like it would balance out.

I have not been able to mentally build a concept that I can use to justify this to my players.

Any ideas (besides just ignore it)?

Melfast

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

Grain Into Gold is THE essential product to pick up if you're a worldbuilder and want to fix the issue. I've already posted an Excel sheet on the cost of armor and weapons, and included how to "graduate" the items to better materials (resulting in +1 to +6) for low magic campaigns.

Linked:

 

[Tony Vargas]

D&D has never had a functional economy, at least not where adventurers were concerned. It's always been a negative sum game. Monsters go out and plunder wealth from the countryside, heros kill the monsters, take thier plunedered loot, sell it to make magic items, etc...

3e was more simulationist, in that the systems presented did allow someone to make skill rolls to earn money and thus make a living. In 4e, the system is just there to model adventuring, a PC, using the rules presented, can't make a living in any way other than killing monsters and taking thier stuff. That doesn't mean the world doesn't allow such things, just that the stystem doesn't bother to model it. You can make your world as economically realistic as you like, the rules just don't come into it.

 

[James McMurray]

The cost to make a magic item using the enchant item ritual is exactly the same as its market price.

Not true. Buying an item costs 10-40% more than the price in the PHB. PHB 224, and also DMG 155.

How to NPC's do it?

For magic items, they charge more. For mundane items, they have less upkeep because they own their supplies and have underlings that let them do more faster.

However, it still does not look like it would balance out.

Why not? Less cost = more profit. More profit without the desire to buy really expensive items = happy peasant.

I have not been able to mentally build a concept that I can use to justify this to my players.

Did they ask?

 

[Melfast]

James,

Thanks for the reply.

The Enchant an Item ritual states that the component cost = price of item, and the PHB also states that the price in the book is the base market price. I did overlook the part on pg 224 in the PHB where it says the price can be 10-40% above the base market price (so I appreciate the reference).

Nothing is cheaper than your own labor if you do not have a more productive use for it. So, if an adventurer can take 2 days off of adventuring while his friends are resting or doing research, she can make any weapon and enchant it with an effective labor cost of zero since she does not have to pay anyone for that labor. This is cheaper than the master smith paying an apprentice or journeyman, or doing it himself since the labor has to be added to the cost of components and materials. If I am doing for myself, there is no labor cost to be added in. Hence, the item should cost me less than market price to produce. The 3e economy recognized this through its skill system, and 4e does not (particularly for mundane items and masterwork materials).

Yes, some of my players are interested in the economics of item creation. Not all of them -- some have no interest in making stuff as it is not part of the game they enjoy. The ones that like to make magic items or the base items that will be enchanted are interested in the economics and why there is no difference in the market price and the manufacturing price.

It is not a huge issue, it is just discordant to their experience in how the world works. (I've had characters elect to invest their treasure with a merchant company to make more money, buy real estate, and such -- no reason characters have to pass up on the opportunity to invest in the game world. These investments have also generated campaign events -- what happened to my ship/cargo/caravan? -- and tied the characters more closely into the campaign since it meant more when the city was threatened since their investments were as at risk as the rest of the people who lived and worked there.)

Melfast

 

[James McMurray]

James,

Thanks for the reply.

The Enchant an Item ritual states that the component cost = price of item, and the PHB also states that the price in the book is the base market price. I did overlook the part on pg 224 in the PHB where it says the price can be 10-40% above the base market price (so I appreciate the reference).

Nothing is cheaper than your own labor if you do not have a more productive use for it. So, if an adventurer can take 2 days off of adventuring while his friends are resting or doing research, she can make any weapon and enchant it with an effective labor cost of zero since she does not have to pay anyone for that labor. This is cheaper than the master smith paying an apprentice or journeyman, or doing it himself since the labor has to be added to the cost of components and materials. If I am doing for myself, there is no labor cost to be added in. Hence, the item should cost me less than market price to produce. The 3e economy recognized this through its skill system, and 4e does not (particularly for mundane items and masterwork materials).

The item is costing you less, 10-40% less, because the "market price" and the "cost to create" aren't actually the same thing in 4e, despite the sentence that says they are. The "market price" is 10-40% higher than the "cost to create" which is erroneously referred to as the market price every now and then.

Yes, some of my players are interested in the economics of item creation. Not all of them -- some have no interest in making stuff as it is not part of the game they enjoy. The ones that like to make magic items or the base items that will be enchanted are interested in the economics and why there is no difference in the market price and the manufacturing price.

Offer bonus XP for providing a believable explanation.

It is not a huge issue, it is just discordant to their experience in how the world works. (I've had characters elect to invest their treasure with a merchant company to make more money, buy real estate, and such -- no reason characters have to pass up on the opportunity to invest in the game world. These investments have also generated campaign events -- what happened to my ship/cargo/caravan? -- and tied the characters more closely into the campaign since it meant more when the city was threatened since their investments were as at risk as the rest of the people who lived and worked there.)

If I'm reading the right things into this, it's exactly how I'd handle it if the players wanted to partake in a business venture: make the business a part of the campaign, and have it create adventures and/or side quests. The increased revenue from the business depends on how those side quests work out, and are accounted for as treasure parcels.

In other words: I wouldn't break the game's economic balance because there's an accountant in the group, I'd turn the desire for profit into a different brand of adventure.