4E value < 3E value

[Fenes]

Like I said, they just can't win.

They could win, if they just offered more info, but made it clear that DMs were free to pick and choose from them. They still can win, if they add more such info in Dragon articles. And of course don't let novels mess FR up again.

But what is around so far is not enough - especially not for new DMs.

Shouldn't be so hard to offer a buffet, instead of a "take this, eat it and like it, dolt!" meal.

But so far? They mad ethe usual stupid mistake of antagonising the old customer base to try and rope in more new customers. A compromise would have been much better.

 

[Maggan]

Like I said, they just can't win.

I'm not even sure they are participating in the same competition that many of us think they are.

/M

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm not even sure they are participating in the same competition that many of us think they are.

Well, I tend agree with that. Just like with the complaints on "marketing failures" I remember from before the release.

They could win, if they just offered more info, but made it clear that DMs were free to pick and choose from them.

How does this improve the readability of the text?

If I gave you a large set of information, and then tell you: Maybe 50 % of the information is wrong or at least incomplete, would this help you?
That's what you risk getting if you don't distinguish well enough between player info and DM info, and if you keep a lot of stuff in that a DM is free to ignore.

You could try it this way:
DM book is condensed with a plethora of information, always reminding you that you can change what you want or ignore stuff.
Then you have the player book that can be used as a reference book.

But how much of the stuff that is not in the Player Book might become "core" of your game - and should be made public to the players?
How much of the stuff that is put into the Player Book might be stuff you'd prefer to trim from the DM book?

Alternatively, you could just have one book designed for DMs, with lots of info you can mix and match. But then you put the newbie DM in the position of selecting all those parts that he wants and then presenting the information to the players that are "true" (or at least supposedly true) for his group.

Alternative, you can just put some core information in the book, those that detail the setting in broad terms but narrow enough to have starting points and plot hooks. A newbie DM is still forced to make up stuff - but the bare bones to get a game starting are there. The players have the regional information they might need in their book. The DM will need the player book, of course.

 

[Fenes]

Alternative, you can just put some core information in the book, those that detail the setting in broad terms but narrow enough to have starting points and plot hooks. A newbie DM is still forced to make up stuff - but the bare bones to get a game starting are there. The players have the regional information they might need in their book. The DM will need the player book, of course.

Any of the regional info in the FRCS would be among the minimum info needed for a player playing a character from that region. If the Player Guide duplicates that info and the DM needs the guide as well, then the FRCS wasted a lot of space for nothing. If it doesn't duplicate the info then the player needs the FRCS as well.

 

[ExploderWizard]

It's amazing the amount of valuable (playable) information the Magenta Colored (Moldvay Set) D&D Basic book crammed into 64 pages. That little book provided me with hours upon hours of game entertainment (Value).

Then they followed it up with the Blue Colored Expert Set (Cook & Marsh). With another 64 pages of pure awesome.

AMEN!!! By far the best gamebooks for the dollar I ever got. I am not exactly a 4E fan but I like the two book format. The original realms boxed set came with 2 books which was great. The DM sections should be in a separate book. The issue of the new FR products having any value is separate from the decision to produce two volumes in my opinion. I haven't been a realms fan since 1989 and the avatar fiasco so while its good to see player and DM information being separated again I don't see these as having value for me.

 

[Fenes]

Ideally, the player book would have all the "known" setting info, the DM book all the "behind the scenes" info. Putting regional overviews into the DM info, and duplicating them in the player info, seems a waste to me. And expecting players to buy the DM book for the info defeats the purpose of having two books.

 

[GlaziusF]

Firearm rules.

Superior ranged weapons.
+3 proficiency bonus to hit.
One-handed, 1d8, 15/30.
Two-handed, 1d12, 20/40.
Load minor.

You're welcome.

Various iconic monsters.

You're really going to have to elaborate on this one. I see beholders, mind flayers, displacer beasts, all kinds of devils and demons. What's missing? Rust monsters? I think they were just put to sleep because nothing in 4E is actually guaranteed to be made of rustable metal.

 

[rounser]

Like I said, they just can't win.

Yes they can. The 3E book was awesome. If you want a cut down setting, make a cut down setting. Don't reinvent FR to be a gutless wonder.

 

[Fifth Element]

Ideally, the player book would have all the "known" setting info, the DM book all the "behind the scenes" info. Putting regional overviews into the DM info, and duplicating them in the player info, seems a waste to me. And expecting players to buy the DM book for the info defeats the purpose of having two books.

I agree. I've always been a fan of basic setting info being in the player's hands, and the "secrets" of the setting being in the DM's.

 

[Mercurius]

I agree. I've always been a fan of basic setting info being in the player's hands, and the "secrets" of the setting being in the DM's.

Me too, although I would have done it a bit different than WotC did, with a short gazetteer-style book (maybe 96 pages) for players with game info and short overviews of regions and such, and a more detailed hardcover tome. This way the investment for players is less (maybe $20 rather than $30) and the DM has a more complete sourcebook.