D&D 4E 4E wackiness escalation

[Shortman McLeod]

This.

Also, I'm stealing that as my sig, if you don't mind

I'd be honored, sir.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Ditto. 3e levels up way to fast, by expectations.

But you can always multiply XP awards by fractions to get the result you want, so no biggy. I always do this.

An interesting question is: What does it mean that levelling is to fast?
Do players and/or DMs want several adventures at the same character level?
Do they dread the time where the characters become too complex?

Personally, as a player, I want my character to improve on a regular basis. But on the other hand, I also want to enjoy what I have from time to time. Playing a bit around with the new toys, without immediately running into just more powerful monsters (and thus not really feeling that my PC got better...).
So, maybe it's actually both. I wonder if D&D 4 can address that.

But back to the real topic:
A possibility (though no real indication exists that) I entertained in the "Game Breaker Spells" thread was that some of the spells that change the dynamic of the game might move up in level so that the fit into the appropriate tier.

So, Raise Dead, Teleport or Overland Flight might become 10th level spells or higher (assuming #spell levels = #class levels)
Plane Shift might become a 20th level spell.

Just like 5th to 6th level defines an important transition for most groups today - suddenly, the wizard can cast fireball, giving him the oppertunity to damage multiple enemies, the fighter gets his second attack. (I just wonder: Does this mean that Fireball will also move a lot of levels up? Or is that fine for a "heroic" campaign?)

 

[Doug McCrae]

Plane shift is the biggest offender in terms of 'too much, too soon'. In my eyes, other planes are the final frontier of D&D (one reason why I don't like Planescape), the climax of a campaign. In 3e the end is supposed to be 20th level, so 9th is much, much too early for the spell. Teleport, overland flight and raise dead aren't as bad, in fact overland flight is fine. Mid-level is the right place for 'crossing the Crystalmists'. In 1e, 9th level was more or less the end of the game, so it made more sense.

I houseruled plane shift to be a 7th level spell for clerics, so they got it at 13th. It seems the designers of 4e agree with me as adventuring in other planes has been moved to 20-30, which would be the equivalent of 13-20 in 3e.

 

[hong]

So, Raise Dead, Teleport or Overland Flight might become 10th level spells or higher (assuming #spell levels = #class levels)
Plane Shift might become a 20th level spell.

I would hope that teleport and overland flight (or their equivalents) become at least 15th level, preferably 20th. Raise dead is tricky, because its presence is going to be tied to the overall lethality of combat. My preference would be to bump it as high as possible, and adjust combat lethality to fit.

 

[JediSoth]

Do we say goodbye to all the 8th and 9th level spells then?

Maybe it means they'll revamp the magic system so that there are more than 9 levels of spells.

After all, there are more than 9 levels of advancement in a character class. What if you got 2nd level spells at 2nd level and 13th level spells at 13th level (instead of 1st level spells at 2nd level and 7th level spells at 13th level)?

JediSoth

 

[ruleslawyer]

In fact, you will! It has been let slip that there will be spells of at least 25th level available. That plus character levels 1-30 encourages me to think that spell levels will equal caster levels for the first time in the game's history.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

In fact, you will! It has been let slip that there will be spells of at least 25th level available. That plus character levels 1-30 encourages me to think that spell levels will equal caster levels for the first time in the game's history.

It certainly makes sense that if they are going to go to 25th level spells, they may as well go all the way to 30th?

I think it's safe to assume we'll see 30 levels of spells.

 

[Jer]

I was underwhelmed by the ELH as I felt it did nothing for promoting epic adventures, it was just a "turn the dial up to eleven" for PCs*

* spot the quote and you'll understand my feelings even more

Hmmm. Maybe that means that they'll "make ten louder and make ten be the top number?" I know that's what I would do when confronted by such a situation.

My complaint about the ELH (which, admittedly, I have not yet had PCs survive long enough to use) is that it seems to add to the bookkeeping while not really doing much to add to the game. I love the idea of epic level quests (and I used to use the old Master's Boxed Set to run epic quests quite a lot), but in D&D 3e those seem to slot into levels 15-20.

 

[hong]

The ELH was an unavoidable thing, really. 3E comes out with this new levelling philosophy that says you'll actually experience 20 character levels in the course of a 2-year game. It wouldn't have been hard to predict that 2 years later, you'll see a lot of players with 20th level characters who want to keep playing, but have no crunch to work with.

I'm wondering what the 4E version of the ELH will look like. Unless they say that there's a hard level cap (which would be a pretty brave decision, but what with the sacred cow slaughter it could happen) there _will_ be people who want to go beyond the 30-level cap eventually. Maybe they'll slow down advancement drastically enough that it'll only happen after 8 years real-time, just in time for 5E.

 

[S'mon]

I would hope that teleport and overland flight (or their equivalents) become at least 15th level, preferably 20th. Raise dead is tricky, because its presence is going to be tied to the overall lethality of combat. My preference would be to bump it as high as possible, and adjust combat lethality to fit.

Yeah, I agree on both points. True Res needs to go. Resurrection might be ok at 29th-30th.