D&D 4E 4E wackiness escalation

Shortman McLeod

First Post
Ashrem Bayle said:
At first I cringed when I read that. Never again will the characters be the wimpy underdogs afraid of a kobold. Never will a fighter be afraid of an angry commoner with a knife.

And who's to say that the dude who looks like an angry commoner with a knife isn't really a disgraced 10th level (former) paladin who divides his time between sleeping with prostitutes and knifing arrogant 3rd level PCs?

It's all how you present it. ;)
 

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ChaosShard

Explorer
Piratecat said:
I was told (second-hand by (contact) after the D&D Q&A seminar) that the new game would take 3e's power curve of levels 4-14, and fit them in to levels 1-30. Thus you'd have more granularity and fewer steep power jumps, with more playable levels.

In other words, I'm not so sure that the top levels are going to be ridiculously epic in power.

Note that this is second-hand and unsubstantiated -- I've heard no official word on it at all.

That could be true, but I read it as "You won't be seeing massive power spikes, just gradual increases." Which is to say that your lv 30 characters will still be truly epic, but the move from 20 to 21 won't unleash a violent torrent of power and riches upon them, it'll be just like going from 19 to 20 or 3 to 4, as opposed to the current Epic rules.
 

ChaosShard

Explorer
Shortman McLeod said:
And who's to say that the dude who looks like an angry commoner with a knife isn't really a disgraced 10th level (former) paladin who divides his time between sleeping with prostitutes and knifing arrogant 3rd level PCs?

It's all how you present it. ;)

This.

Also, I'm stealing that as my sig, if you don't mind :D
 


WhatGravitas

Explorer
Ashrem Bayle said:
Most such spells were ridiculous anyway. No big loss as far as I'm concerned.
Most spells were really amped-up versions of lower level spells. I'm sure that you wouldn't miss out that much flavour...

Cheers, LT.
 

Piratecat

Sesquipedalian
kheris said:
That could be true, but I read it as "You won't be seeing massive power spikes, just gradual increases." Which is to say that your lv 30 characters will still be truly epic, but the move from 20 to 21 won't unleash a violent torrent of power and riches upon them, it'll be just like going from 19 to 20 or 3 to 4, as opposed to the current Epic rules.
I suspect this is much more likely than removing the traditional really high level spells. Of course, I love high level play, so that may just be me projecting. :D
 

William Ronald

Explorer
kheris said:
That could be true, but I read it as "You won't be seeing massive power spikes, just gradual increases." Which is to say that your lv 30 characters will still be truly epic, but the move from 20 to 21 won't unleash a violent torrent of power and riches upon them, it'll be just like going from 19 to 20 or 3 to 4, as opposed to the current Epic rules.


That is my interpretation as well. I think that the goal is to have the sweet spot now found at levels 4-14 in 3E apply to all levels.

I have had fun with Epic level play, and I think that there should be room for it in the rules. One of my biggest grumbles about the Epic Level Handbook is that it seemed tacked on to the system and did not flow seemlessly from the existing rules. Indeed, the epic level spell system was very different from what was in the books. What I expected was something that would fill me with a sense of awe about what characters could accomplish, perhaps being finally able to equal wizards like Mordenkainen or Elminster. Instead, I often felt as if I had ordered one dish at a restaruant and received another one.

Now, you can still have a mid level character class plane shift and still have it be a paragon level adventure. (Heck, one of the strengths of Planescape is that characters of all levels were able to adventure in the Planes. Also, the first planar adventure in D&D, Q1 -- Queen of the Demonweb Pits, was for characters with levels in their teens.)

Not all epic level adventures have to be "silly." See Sepulchrave II's story hour for an adventure that is epic in level and scope, and yet had strong roleplaying and exploration of philosophical concepts. We could do with more silliness like that, as well as silliness like Elric, Corum, Conan, or other powerful heroes. Indeed, mythology includes heroes who are advised by the gods, or sometimes can challenge gods or fearsome monsters on behalf of the world? Should not a D&D character be able to rise from a local hero to someone whose name in that fantasy world will be spoken in the same way that people once spoke of Cuchulainn, Hercules, Odysseus, Gilgamesh, or other heroes? The D&D game over its incarnations has had many things for epic level play. Or should only a Mordenkainen, a Tenser, a Robilar, or an Elminster have the ability to become among the mightiest Indeed, I hope that 4E is about options -- including people being able to have different styles of adventures. My philosophy is that the rules should be a base to build on, and a DM always should have the power of saying NO.
 

ruleslawyer

Registered User
Not to pooh-pooh that (wonderfully eloquent, BTW!) post, but I do tend to think that 3e levels 21-30 have far less to do with Elric, Corum, and Conan and a whole lot more to do with Miracleman or the JLA. The pacing, structure, and the math (oh the math!) at 3e epic levels goes utterly insane by both narrative and mechanical metrics.

Now, if people want to have that style of play, I wouldn't mind seeing a PHB3/DMG3 that dealt with levels past 30. But I'll be happy if "30th is the new 20th," or actually, more to the point "30th is the new 20th that plays like 12th." Spreading D&D's current levels 1-20 out over 30 levels is a good compromise between allowing continuous, reasonably-paced improvement and simultaneously not dead-ending the game too quickly.

My guess from the Q&A is that the truly game-altering powers (planar travel, true res, discern location) are going to move up to the 21-30 level range, and that the stuff that takes the power curve out of whack around 17th level (shape change, time stop, miracle) is going to get a hefty rewrite.
 

Gentlegamer

Adventurer
William Ronald said:
Or should only a Mordenkainen, a Tenser, a Robilar, or an Elminster have the ability to become among the mightiest
The first three characters were actual player characters in the Greyhawk campaign.
 

F4NBOY

First Post
Piratecat said:
I was told (second-hand by (contact) after the D&D Q&A seminar) that the new game would take 3e's power curve of levels 4-14, and fit them in to levels 1-30. Thus you'd have more granularity and fewer steep power jumps, with more playable levels.

In other words, I'm not so sure that the top levels are going to be ridiculously epic in power.

Note that this is second-hand and unsubstantiated -- I've heard no official word on it at all.

So characters will have a greater number of options, but the overall power of their options won't be so high. The character won't be as powerful as the 3E characters, but will have more things to do. Nice.

I had an insight today about how they are making multiclassing a more viable and interesting option BTW.
 

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