D&D 4E 4e's Equivalent to Pathfinder

[Peraion Graufalke]

Well, the upside is that some def4ders might now better understand how the 3.x grognards felt back in the days and they're still far away from the level of bashing their own current game the unloaded on 3.x and earlier during the transition period

Oh, so being at the receiving end of Schadenfreude is an upside now? Some of us experienced the 2e -> 3e transition on the 2e grognard side; I was one of them. There's nothing positive about grave-dancing and edition-warring, period.

And don't worry, the 5e designers still have plenty of time to print the t-shirts to bash the soon-to-be-abandoned edition at GenCon 2013.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Oh, so being at the receiving end of Schadenfreude is an upside now? Some of us experienced the 2e -> 3e transition on the 2e grognard side; I was one of them. There's nothing positive about grave-dancing and edition-warring, period.

And don't worry, the 5e designers still have plenty of time to print the t-shirts to bash the soon-to-be-abandoned edition at GenCon 2013.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I'd have given you XP, but you disabled it

Sadly, I've noticed a lot more open hate from the 3.x/PF crowd since the announcement. It's almost as though the haters feel they've been given license since even the devs are doing it to a lesser degree. That, and they've taken the announcement as "I was right all along." Two wrongs don't make a right, but good luck getting the haters to agree.

It's starting to look like WotC is repeating the same mistakes they made last transition, just the focus of the comments have shifted. The more I see, the more it seems that they use the word "unity" to actually mean "appeal to the lapsed 3.x'ers and pay lip-service to the 4e crowd." It's not a big secret that Monte Cook doesn't think too highly of 4e as a whole, and I hope that fact doesn't have too heavy an influence on the design. I think I'm going to be disappointed.

 

[Mirtek]

Oh, so being at the receiving end of Schadenfreude is an upside now?

If it causes some people to next time not gloat when being at the dishing out end and developing more sympathy to the people at the receiving end it most certainly is. For some people it's the only way to learn this.

 

[Peraion Graufalke]

If it causes some people to next time not gloat when being at the dishing out end and developing more sympathy to the people at the receiving end it most certainly is. For some people it's the only way to learn this.

IMO teaching people by hurting their feelings does not work well, if at all. Resentment and bitterness are the most likely results, and I think we've seen too much of that already.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I'd have given you XP, but you disabled it

Thank you. You can still give xp btw, they're just not displayed publicly. I can see them in my profile just fine.

It's starting to look like WotC is repeating the same mistakes they made last transition, just the focus of the comments have shifted. The more I see, the more it seems that they use the word "unity" to actually mean "appeal to the lapsed 3.x'ers and pay lip-service to the 4e crowd." It's not a big secret that Monte Cook doesn't think too highly of 4e as a whole, and I hope that fact doesn't have too heavy an influence on the design. I think I'm going to be disappointed.

My impression is that selective amnesia is part of their new marketing strategy. That, and largely outsourcing negative comments about 4e to bloggers who take part in the closed playtests.

Monte Cook's comments fill me with dread. He doesn't seem to have played 4e or even read the core rules. The comments from the other designers aren't much better, either.

I've come to the conclusion that I'm not part of WotC's target demographic for 5e. Well, that's their problem, not mine. With 4e, I've got what I need to play and run awesome games with my friends, so I'll spend my money elsewhere.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

They have yet for instance to release an adventure or setting that even touches on the actual cool things you can do in 4e IMHO.

What are those cool things? I'm pretty interested in opinions about settings, and I've never seen a comment quite like this one.

5e will probably be an interesting game. I'm not at all sure it will allow for anything even close to 4e. Honestly, without DDI/CB/MB/Compendium how interesting is 4e really? Its still a fun game, but will it even be worth bothering with? Especially with WotC's attitude towards previous editions, it will just be a pain in the ass recruiting people to play.

You make it sound as if 4e is homework without DDI. Okay, it is verging on crazy with all the add-ons like backgrounds and themes. And I'm sure it will be tougher to find 4e groups in a couple years.

But I never had DDI...even before I discovered the C4 compilation-clone. And none of the players who I've introduced to 4e use the CB to make characters. Oh, and I also write most of the monsters I DM.

So I'll probably end up at least borrowing a 5e PHB to try the game at some point, but unless something unexpected happens I'll be happily DMing 4e all the same.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

http://www.enworld.org/forum/press-...tem-license-not-4e-gaming-system-license.html

That's the best layman's explanation of D&D legalese I've ever seen!

The important question of course is: How much can some D&D fan or 3pp clone before violating the practical OGL/GSL? How much before WotC targets a writer with one of those long-shot law suits that will bankrupt the writer even if he's in the right?

 

[Pour]

That's the best layman's explanation of D&D legalese I've ever seen!

The important question of course is: How much can some D&D fan or 3pp clone before violating the practical OGL/GSL? How much before WotC targets a writer with one of those long-shot law suits that will bankrupt the writer even if he's in the right?

Good questions. I'm kind of assuming that is going to be a risk from the start, which is kind of a downer, but any long-shot lawsuit could bankrupt the common man when its issued from a corporation. I guess the trick isn't provoking them, or making them feel as if they're losing anything, which sort of brings me to my own question:

Can a person or group be sued for using cloned rules if they're not profiting, or perhaps taking only donations for maintenance, web tools, and art orders? I understand 4e rules can't be posted wholesale as is, but could cloned rules be put in SRD format when they'll never be attached to purchasable products? Is there a gray sort of 'fan' area that could keep a corporation at bay so long as money is kept out of it?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

What are those cool things? I'm pretty interested in opinions about settings, and I've never seen a comment quite like this one.

Well, honestly, I'd say it is MORE accurate in terms of adventures. Settings I don't find are too heavily system dependent, but 4e does really TRY to get out of your way there at least. I think that some more unusual setting concepts could work with 4e. For instance I built a "medieval romance" setting. It works QUITE well. 4e mechanics support it nicely, no need for out-of-genre healbots or blaster wizards running around. PCs can be nice bands of knights, etc. I won't say there aren't some games made specifically for this genre, but 4e has better core mechanics than things like Pendragon for sure.

As for ADVENTURES. Gawd where do I start! A good 4e adventure to me should read like an action adventure movie. Stuff should be BIGGER THAN LIFE, lots bigger! Not absurd, but big and bold and cut in straightforward chunks. Fighting your way through a maze of underground rooms? Bleh, KotS was the least appropriate adventure ever made for a game system. Not the worst, but the most ridiculously badly suited. The situation hasn't improved. Now and then there was an adventure on DDI that seemed to manage to "get it", at least halfway.

The werewolf adventure that came out a few months back there wasn't bad, it didn't get stuck in a single spot and the bad guys were decent. It still didn't quite hit it with the environment though.

My adventures are filled with collapsing mines, rides on minecarts, explosions, floods, unstoppable death traps, rapid reversals, falling, sliding, running, jumping, flying, falling, god make it MOOOOOVVVVVVEEEEEEE. Every time some PC fails a skill check, they create a new cool complication and hang by just that much more of a thread. Your fate isn't to be threatened by some orc, bleh! (yeah, they're A threat, but more to make there be threats to contrast the real threats to). No, the threat to your character is to fall into the hideous pit of darkness, to be experimented on by the mad mage, to have the gem of madness grafted to your forehead so you will be enslaved to the evil god. Those are THREATS. Defeating that is cool. lol.

And we have a system that does it so well because you have such great rules for doing any wacky thing, so nice and transparent and logically complete yet open-ended. Characters are durable enough that the players will take the big risks, survive the bumps and bruises, and manage to hang on by a thread, burn an AP, pull a Second Wind, whip out a daily and claw their way back from the brink.

No, 4e is just basically utterly untapped. Not even close. Pathetic really.

You make it sound as if 4e is homework without DDI. Okay, it is verging on crazy with all the add-ons like backgrounds and themes. And I'm sure it will be tougher to find 4e groups in a couple years.

But I never had DDI...even before I discovered the C4 compilation-clone. And none of the players who I've introduced to 4e use the CB to make characters. Oh, and I also write most of the monsters I DM.

So I'll probably end up at least borrowing a 5e PHB to try the game at some point, but unless something unexpected happens I'll be happily DMing 4e all the same.

Well, maybe I'm spoiled, lol. Still, having DDI access roughly halves the prep time for my games. I just tend to do very little original monster design anymore, which was always the big time suck (it was of course NPCs back in the pre-4e days, but...). Of course it is still easier than previous e's. I just don't have masses of time and energy these days for the more trivial stuff. I want to spend my time on adventure ideas and campaign concepts, and noodling away on my homebrew setting.

 

[Pour]

As for ADVENTURES. Gawd where do I start!

By writing one. That's meant with the utmost admiration. You've always had a steady handle on the rules and a keen eye for design. I agree totally with your assessment of what 4e could be, but isn't. The edition is almost entirely untapped. Your adventures truly sound wonderful, so do the community and the edition a favor: bite the bullet, sit down for a couple of weeks in your free time, and unleash an AA adventure on us. Please. We need the fan content if 4e is going to endure beyond 2014 and this is exactly the way it happens. I'll be right there with you, bud. Seriously, put fingers to keyboard and make the magic happen.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Good questions. I'm kind of assuming that is going to be a risk from the start, which is kind of a downer, but any long-shot lawsuit could bankrupt the common man when its issued from a corporation. I guess the trick isn't provoking them, or making them feel as if they're losing anything, which sort of brings me to my own question:

Can a person or group be sued for using cloned rules if they're not profiting, or perhaps taking only donations for maintenance, web tools, and art orders? I understand 4e rules can't be posted wholesale as is, but could cloned rules be put in SRD format when they'll never be attached to purchasable products? Is there a gray sort of 'fan' area that could keep a corporation at bay so long as money is kept out of it?

Anybody can be sued, lol. So the answer of course is 'yes', you could be. Notice of course that WotC has never bothered to take on OSR clones, they're supporting long discontinued versions of the game. OTOH they've been quite happy to issue C&D letters to people providing certain 4e tools. Once 5e is out, will they get too exercised about 4e stuff? Hard to say. You just have to take your chances. There are no guarantees.