D&D 4E 4e's Sleep spell

[william_nova]

This was brought up over in Lizard's play test review of KotS, but I thought since I had the same exact comment/question it would make more sense to open a thread dedicated to it.

Our group had issues with this power too. Normally, if one hits with their "save ends" type power, the "hit" effect takes affect immediately, and there is no save made right away. Foes are not granted a save to negate it until the end of THEIR next turn. Thus, the power that hits is guaranteed to have an ongoing effect that lasts at least 1 round.

Sleep wording seems to indicate the wizard casts, hits, enemies are immediately slowed. Then on foes' turns (end of their turns, after they've acted), they make a save vs. the slow. If they fail that, they immediately fall asleep. If they make their save, however, they are not asleep, and the slow ends. Net result is they only were slowed for 1 turn.

This seems different from the rest of the known powers (at least, off the top of my head). Most powers' primary function happens immediately if the attacker hits the defense. So if you toss a sleep spell, and your attack check hits the Will defense, they *should* fall asleep (grin). It's almost like the sleep is currently written to ramp up from slowed to asleep (sounds cool in theory, but is lame in practice as a daily power, IMHO).

We've slightly reworded the HIT effect to be this...
"Hit: The target immediately falls asleep (save ends). If target makes its save, it wakes up but is slowed (save ends)."

This way they are sleep'ed for at least one round (on a hit) and slowed for a least one round (on a miss). Only time will tell if this is too powerful, but we're guessing it isn't too power for a daily power.
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I'm a little confuzzled on how to rule this one also. I'm struggling to get the "feel" of the mechanics so as to be more easily able get in the heads of the devs.

I'm guessing here the way it's meant to function is more nerfy than 3e, and certainly more nerfed than 2e. Not only do you get a save, but you get a save vs. being slowed, then you get a save vs sleep, then you save every round to keep sleeping. Sounds more like they're trying to say "fights are tough, don't rely on wizard tricks to save you in 4e" which I can appreciate, but will take some getting used to.

So do I have this right? I cast sleep, roll me die. If I beat the defence the target is slowed. Then at the end of the target's round the DM rolls a save, and if it fails, it falls asleep at the end of its turn, so it gets to act still before the sleep effect takes hold. Then on subsequent turns it gets to save once on its turn, and any save breaks the sleep. That sound about right?

I'm especially curious about the part I put in bold. Does the target really get to take an action before it goes to sleep? No more last resort "sleep saves the MU's bacon" anymore?

I humbly submit my greasy mess of a question to the rules gods who inhabit this forum.

 

[Nail]

So do I have this right? I cast sleep, roll me die. If I beat the defence the target is slowed. Then at the end of the target's round the DM rolls a save, and if it fails, it falls asleep at the end of its turn, so it gets to act still before the sleep effect takes hold. Then on subsequent turns it gets to save once on its turn, and any save breaks the sleep. That sound about right?

Yep.

The target rolls a saving throw at the end of it's turn. So yes, it gets to act for one turn while "slowed". Yawning, even.

 

[Lacyon]

I'm guessing here the way it's meant to function is more nerfy than 3e, and certainly more nerfed than 2e. Not only do you get a save, but you get a save vs. being slowed, then you get a save vs sleep, then you save every round to keep sleeping. Sounds more like they're trying to say "fights are tough, don't rely on wizard tricks to save you in 4e" which I can appreciate, but will take some getting used to.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a huge nerf. I agree that in a good chunk of situations, 4E sleep isn't the bombshell that earlier versions were. On the other hand, there's no level/hit die cap to limit which creatures can be affected by it, either, meaning you can hit either a gigantic horde of weak creatures or a single higher-powered target in situations where you'd have been out of luck in 3E.

So do I have this right? I cast sleep, roll me die. If I beat the defence the target is slowed. Then at the end of the target's round the DM rolls a save, and if it fails, it falls asleep at the end of its turn, so it gets to act still before the sleep effect takes hold. Then on subsequent turns it gets to save once on its turn, and any save breaks the sleep. That sound about right?

I'm especially curious about the part I put in bold. Does the target really get to take an action before it goes to sleep? No more last resort "sleep saves the MU's bacon" anymore?

You have it right, except that sleep can still save the MU's bacon.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Do not forget that even if the Wizard misses, the target is slowed until it makes a save at the end of its turn.

 

[hennebeck]

Also remember, it is slowed even if you miss.

See the amazing and remarkable thread from a few days ago titled, Sleep. Sleep! SLEEP!
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=227439

 

[william_nova]

Also remember, it is slowed even if you miss.

See the amazing and remarkable thread from a few days ago titled, Sleep. Sleep! SLEEP!
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=227439

D'oh! That'll learn me to not read beyond the 1st page when starting new theads! Sowwy!

But seriously, thanks for the quick and prompt replies. You guys rock.

And so do I. This old grognard who has not played D&D in at least 15 years correctly interpreted a rule that I was almost sure I was screwing up. I still got the moxie!

 

[Surgoshan]

A lone wizard is attacked by a horde of kobold minions moving, for some reason, in a 5x5 square. He casts sleep and then RUNS.